Reptile & Amphibian Forums

down through the years ? I have noticed in the past decade of axis of the commercial collecting of wild caught to be actually justified without the thought by many what exactly makes commercial collecting commercial. Meaning that there is an ultimate goal of collecting w/c for monies ( breeding for profit ). While there was a time ( and it has definitely slowed down at least here in the USA ) when the commercial collecting of w/c was the way to go and as with very little opposition for many of us and I'm slightly embarrassed to include myself. Of course we are talking before the 90ties and before. While the hobby was at that stage, yes , there was some people getting into the buying of w/c to promote breeding and genes and just not the keeping of a pet reptile. But let's examine my upper sentence of the ultimate goal > if you collect or purchase w/c species to breed for whatever purpose and resale offspring's, isn't that just one form of a commercialization ? Grant it that it is not of the commercialization of collecting every freaking thing or any mass number of any certain species to make monies but I view this as still a form of commercialization. I invite any thoughts on this or any debates........
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

If you collect specimens for the purpose of making a profit, you are a commercial collector - be it 1 specimen collected a year or 5,000.

However, you can be a hobbyist and still sell CB offspring and NOT be commercial. The difference in my mind - a hobbyist puts more money into his reptiles than he gets out and has no goal whatsoever of profitability.

Now - maybe a hobbyist will get lucky and hatch glow in the dark neon gopher snakes and suddenly turn a profit, or maybe a hobbyist will spend hours and hours of selective breeding and come up with something new, but they do it for a hobby - not for aspirations of making their wallet fatter.

That's how I see it anyway.

Oh - while some hobbyists will have rack systems, particularly if their hobby is related to selective breeding aspect, a hobbyist is probably far more likely to use display cages at least for a decent percentage of their herps.
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata (gravid)

I agree that both ways are "commercialy collecting" but i think it is justified one way. it is one thing to collect an animal to in turn captive breed it, wich lowers the number of W/c animals in the future. I see no problem with this, even if it is to turn a profit, in fact i encourage it. I would rather see 100 snakes taken out of the wild and given to a commercial breeder, then 10,000 taken out of the wild and sold to pet stores. In one case, the collecting is an un-ending process, in the other, it is simply to start making the animal availiable to the public without taking them from their habbitat.

I agree. Mass collection from the wild should be avoided. There's no good reason for it - and it lowers the value of the herp (excess supply) making it unprofitable for the commercial breeders who provide captive bred specimens.
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata (gravid)

And on top of that endangers the populations in the wild. As if herp keepers didn't have enough trouble with PETA as it was.. the government does hate us so... *sigh*

Heh yeah - it's rediculous that some cities have laws against constrictors that grow to over 3 ft in length. As if a mountain kingsnake is going to do harm to anyone ...
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata (gravid)

I don't collect wild for sale. I will take a really nice specimen to use in my classroom or as a breeder. The thing is here in Fl the rapid growth in all but protected areas is rampant. I have seen great snakes and turtles in the wild and left them, thinking I was doing my part by not overcollecting.
Then a few months later seeing the entire area bulldozed. Then I think if I had kept the animal it would still be alive. preserving large tracts whenever possible seems the best answer but that conflicts with making money.

I agree with the original post. If you are collecting snakes with the goal of breeding and selling offspring you are a commercial collector. And if you are buying captive born offspring from these people, you are supporting the trade. All of us are guilty of this collusion.

I agree that both ways are "commercialy collecting" but i think it is justified one way. it is one thing to collect an animal to in turn captive breed it, wich lowers the number of W/c animals in the future.

This sentiment is good in theory, but it doesn't work out that way in many cases. I remember reading similar sentiments described in some of the early captive breeding books/papers.

The problem is one of greed. If a breeder sells his captive born offspring for more money than a wild caught animal costs, he is encouraging others to collect more from the wild, not discouraging it.

If people see that someone is selling (and getting) $500 for captive born ________snakes from a certain locality, then people aren't going to shell out $500 for their own captive pair. Many herpers will head out to the locality and try to get a pair of their own to breed and make money.

If the original seller had charged less money than it would cost to collect your own, then he will make a profit (in numbers) and discourage more collecting. But most breeders try to maximize their profit without thought to the impact it has on wild populations.

Look at cornsnakes. They are a dime a dozen, both in captivity and in the wild. And they are dirt cheap from breeders. Yet I could contact the major herp dealers in Florida and buy 50 wild caught corns this morning. The captive breeding of these animals hasn't stopped the wild collection. I don't know of any species where captive breeding has reduced the pressure on wild populations (except maybe in Burmese Pythons).
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

> The problem is one of greed. If a breeder sells his captive born
> offspring for more money than a wild caught animal costs, he is
> encouraging others to collect more from the wild, not
> discouraging it.

I'm not sure that is always true.
Commercial breeders often breed for pattern and/or temperment traits, wild caught specimens are whatever they are.

I believe an example of this can be seen with mountain kingsnakes - getting the young to feed can be a pain in the soft flesh below the lower back. But some breeders have intentionally only bred the young that took pinkies relatively easily, resulting in young that are much easier as a general rule to feed f/t pinkies from the start - and thus, are theoretically more desireable to hobbyists and pet stores than wild caught younglings.

I'm hoping to find a wild caught L. Zonata. Went specifically looking for one a couple of days ago, but did not find any.

Know why I want to take one from the wild?
It is illegal to sell them in the state of California. I can not get one from a captive breeder, I _have_ to get one from the wild. And even more bizarre, since the bag limit is one - effectively I am not allowed to ever breed them, even if I have a breeders permit from Fish and Game for native herptiles.

How crazy is that? I'd buy a captive bred specimen in a heartbeat if it were legal, that way I could get one that is a known good rodent feeder.
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata (gravid)

Here is what I think the law allows (after reading it myself.) Of course, it will and can be interpreted other ways by different people. This is my own interpretation based on the wording. I'm no lawyer. I don't work for Fish and Game. This isn't necessarily how an officer will see it:

You can breed a legal (i.e. not a San Diego mtn king) zonata to another legal zonata possessed by another CA fishing license holder. You can't sell the offspring, and you'd have to give away the offspring on or by Dec 31. You can't release the offspring. Any licensee can have one zonata except for the San Diego mtn king and any mtn king found west of I-5.

For example, if my wife has a CA fishing license and so do I, we can have 2 zonata in our household - one for her and one for me. And if they happen to be male and female and happen to produce offspring, well.. But in the end, we can only have one each. We have to give the babies away by Dec 31 of that same year. Can't sell them. Can't release them. That is my take on it. Maybe others will chime in and agree or disagree.

I think the law is there to prevent overcollecting of WCs and commercial sales of WCs and CB offspring. It really doesn't say two legal z's each owned by two different licensees can't be bred. I think anyway. Interesting topic.

The way I read it - you have to have a hobbyist permit to breed *any* native california herptile, wether WC or not. The permit for the hobbyist is pretty cheap - I think ~ $40.00 or so.

Looking at the permit info, at least with the hobbyist permit, you are not permitted to breed more than three species, and any specimens received "on loan" count towards your bag limit (and have to be documented with fish and game) which means that for the two snakes to get together, one has to be on loan from someone else.

If you catch a gravid female, you have 45 days after hatching to find homes for them and reduce your population back down to the bag limit (1 in the case of Lampropeltus Zonata).

I'm actually writing a list of questions on things that are unclear to me. I'm hoping that someone at Fish and Game will be willing to do a recorded Q&A session, with permission to distribute the results as a podcast. There's a lot of things I have questions about.

For example, my femal Cal. King is CB - I bought it from someone in Alaska. Does she count towards my bag limit?

Say I catch a L. Zonata that is gravid. 45 days may not be long enough to find proper homes for all of the young because they need to be taking pinkies w/o lizard scenting them first. Would I be in violation if I wanted to do the right thing - and make sure each baby takes f/t pinkies w/o any tricks for at least three consecutive feedings? If feeding once a week, that doesn't give a lot of time once they start taking pinkies.

I also want a clear cut answer as to whether or not I can purchase a L. Zonata from an out of state breeder. I could not find anything on that. That would be my preference if possible.

Anyway - I'm hoping to get some of the questions I have cleared up, and it would be great if someone from F&G would be willing to do so in a question/answer session that could be shared.
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata (gravid)

Your Cal king had to be produced from someone with a Cal breeder's permit to not count towards your bag limit. Since the breeder was in Alaska, he doesn't have the Calif permit. It may be legal for him/her to produce Cal kings and sell them (they are non-native in Alaska.) Is it technically OK for you to have one shipped to Calif where they are native? That is a good question.

I hope you get answers to your inquiries from F&G, but depending who you talk to, you may get slightly different responses. The law as written can be interpreted a few different ways. Please post what you find out or email me.