Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have recently breeder loaned one of my normal female balls to another breeder to plug with his spider male... what came out were odd patterned spiders with unusual heads and spotted pattern down the sides... I will have pics soon, but the person is saying they are simply "ugly" and will be hard to sell and worth less. I am not an expert but my gut says something is up with the spider offspring that are visibly different then all the rest of the dads offspring that year... to me a lot of co-doms seem to be popping out with visible recessive genes... looking at the spiders on the market right now that are het for anything look different... could my odd patterned normal female that i lent out be het for something and now passed it down to 1/2 the clutch...if so what...or do sometimes just ugly spiders pop out?

Spiders all differ slightly, but they are still spiders. Make sure nothing changes in the deal you guys agreed on when you loaned the snake, they are still spiders and no spider is worthless, or worth less. -J.

>>Spiders all differ slightly, but they are still spiders. Make sure nothing changes in the deal you guys agreed on when you loaned the snake, they are still spiders and no spider is worthless, or worth less. -J.

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gail
_____
Snakebytes

ok this brings me to my second problem, when i originally loaned the normal female out i was under the impression we would split the clutch up 50/50, however nothing was ever really contracted and now he is trying to make me content with one spider male offspring... the clutch was 6 eggs... 3 odd spider males 1 normal spider female and 2 odd normals... does that sound fair or should i press for 2 male spiders like i had originally anticipated.... i will snap photos in the morning

You contributed a...at most $300 anmal...he contributed a $3000 animal...what do you think the breakdown of animals should be?
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Michael Enriquez

Fair is what you agreed to before you loaned your female out. Sorry to say...

Agreements range from a straight cash deal, to 1 morph, to half the clutch.

This is how friendships are broken and why many people won't do breeder loans.

Chris Morasky
Coils Select Serpents
www.coilsserpents.com

Hey,

I've seen some spiders that just didn't "come out" right- spider head, normal looking pattern- didn't like them at all- however, they are still spiders and should pass on the spider traits. For the breeder loan, you should have communicated the terms of the loan beforehand. If you didn't, it's like an estate settlement with no will- he said, she said....it could get ugly. If he or she only offers one spider male, take it and then take your female elsewhere if you like. Develop a relationship with the breeder and thank them for their generosity genuinely.

The person that replied about animal "worths"- is not really using an accurate yardstick- your female contributed a large loss of body weight and a big sacrifice- where the spider's owner contributed....sperm.... and received- 6 more eggs than he/she would have without your female. 50% clutch splits are always the best way to go, but with higher end animals, sometimes it's best just to get one morph to get started.

Just my 2 cents, not here to rock the boat, just to row forward!

Peace,

Steve Harrison

never assume when making deals. Always have each detail lined up before the loaning of an animal occurs. I have a good friend that we are working on several projects together and even though we work at the same hospital and are good friends we make sure we know what is going to happen with the babies ahead of time. Granted the person that contributes the morph animal has the right to give more to the person contributing the normal but do not expect it. A morph x het breeding should be a 50/50 split but to expect a half split when only contributing a normal or not proven morph female is kinda crazy. Last year I loaned a normal female to my buddy and he bred his pastel to her, we got 6 or 7 large eggs, can't remember right now. Odds killed us and we only got 1 pastel, a female from the clutch. I had already accepted that i was going to be left with a few normals and to my surprise he let me take the female pastel. that is not a normal situation when doing breeder loans and nobody should expect it. Of course I will repay the gesture in the future. as far as your problem I'd say that he's being fair by offering you one odd spider male but if you thought you should have gotten more, you should have put it in writing before hand. What I would try to do is get the odd females from the clutch too and call that quits with this deal. That way if there is anything strange going on, he only has the odd spiders to work the project with and he will be several years behind you. Hope this helps.
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Josh Hutto
J&K Reptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
1.0 Vanilla Ball Python (Gulf Coast)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
Alot of normal BP females (some not so normal)
2 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrier
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

...
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

Before you loan your female you should have put in writing exactly what the split was going to be eliminating the problem at hand where you say half the clutch and the other party says 1 spider. Not taking sides but I doubt that he would have agreed to 50/50 split when your contribution was a normal female and his was a spider male. As far as ugly spiders if your talking about dots on the side then he's right they will probably sell for less than a nice clean pattern one. I would take the one spider and be happy you got a nice morph out of the deal. Live and learn.

I would be happy with the 1 spider, I would see if he would throw in the normals. In the future write a contract. You can't really trust anyone. If I was in the breeders situation I would not be willing to do a 50/50 split but I would have made that clear before I took your animal. I would always want the majority of the morphs, since there was only 4 I would want 3. If 5 were produced I would give you 2. Even though as someone pointed out he only contributed sperm, he still used his male on your animal and males can't breed unlimited females.
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John Vandegrift

As others said this is where breeding loans get yucky!! We did a breeding loan this year with my brother, he brought his male pastel over and I paired it up with my 4 normal females. We had agreed ahead that we would split everything 50/50. If he hadn't lent us his male I simply would have used my het OG or het pied or black back, no skin off my back to not use his pastel but he didn't have any females to pair it up with so he wouldn't get anything without my help. In your case I'm guessing you didn't have any males to use? Did the Spider owner have any other females to use? If he had no females and you had no males I would say split 50/50, we're not talking a 10,000.00 animal here it is a spider, either way he is up 1.1 spiders and 0.1 normals that he wouldn't have without your female?? I think he is being greedy! The only time I would see the morph owner keeping the majority is using say a lesser or a spotnose with someones normal and then letting the normal owner keep a morph offspring. Personally if there isn't anything in it for me I'm most likely not going to do a breeding loan, I have a lesser going this year and my brother mentioned letting me use one of his females and splitting the clutch 50/50, I said sure as long as it is his pastel female not a normal female Gotta be something in it for me that I can't do on my own.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com

But still, without that normal female, he would not have had any of those 4 spiders, the guy with the spider male would have had 4 less spiders total

how do you know that he would have had less spiders? He could have had another female of his own that he put with a diff male so he could help this person out. Or take another scenerio into account. He bred this person's female and then put his spider male with another one of his. However, the spider had used up his supply of viable sperm and missed the females receptive time. Or this female was stuborn and the spider had to work to breed and was no longer interested in anymore females that the owner had available? There are soo many possibilities that could have happened. And you say this was only a spider clutch, a think a snake that sells for a couple grand or even 1500 is worth alot to most people, if it's not send me your next clutch of spiders or pastels out of the goodness of your heart, heck I'll send you a normal female in exchange. lol.
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Josh Hutto
J&K Reptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
1.0 Vanilla Ball Python (Gulf Coast)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
Alot of normal BP females (some not so normal)
2 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrier
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

np
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Josh Hutto
J&K Reptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
1.0 Vanilla Ball Python (Gulf Coast)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
Alot of normal BP females (some not so normal)
2 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrier
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

You're right that maybe the spider didn't take with any other females, that is a risk assumed, the same as if the female that was loaned didn't take. I wouldn't do a breeding loan unless there is something in it for me, don't get me wrong I stated that plainly. Obviously there wasn't a clear objective set out before hand, I don't think a 50/50 split is a big deal though, especially if the female was transported to the male. The owner of the male had the opportunity to pair up his male with numerous females, where as the female is fully dedicated to the one male. Sure the male is worth more but he is not justicated to the one female for the whole season. When breeding dogs the sire usually gets the pick of the litter where as the female gets the rest of the litter, she is the one doing all the work, he was only needed for the short time. Why with snakes does it seem to go the other way?? Like I said if I handed out my normal female to someone to breed with say a lesser or a butter or a spotnose and they agreed to give me one of the morphs, I'd jump at the chance, I don't honestly see why anyone would do that though. Even for something like a genetic stripe I would be happy with a pair of hets but wouldn't do it for less than that. But in the case of a spider, pastel, yellowbelly, I wouldn't agree to it unless I was getting half the offspring, but like I said, i have stuff to pair my females up with, and I wouldn't take in a female on loan unless I trusted the person, and it would still have to be benefitting me in some way.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com

First, with dogs, the [bleep] is not a mutt, she's a purebred, same as the dog - she carries the same genetics he does. Her owners have an investment that compares to the dog's owner.

Second, with dogs, the [bleep]'s owner has most of the work beforehand and almost always has the litter at her place. WORK, WORK, WORK. With snakes, typically the normal female goes to the owner of the male morph, meaning that person has to house, clean, and feed the snake for six or more months.

Also, dogs have a nearly unlimited capacity to sire litters - not so with our snakes. 7 or 8 girls per year over a limited breeding season is just about it.

Christy

Bleep = term for female dog that begins with a b lol.

Hi Nita,

I disagree that the spider owner is being greedy. He most likely has invested $5,000 at least in his animal. The owner of the normal female has probably invested $200. Unless, as you stated, the spider owner has no females (really unlikely), then it's hard to understand why you would feel the normal female owner deserves as big a share as the person who took the risk to invest $5,000. If spiders are not that big of a deal - "It's just a spider, anyway", then maybe the person with the normal should go out and buy one - after all, it's just a spider!

Bottom line, the person with the pricey animal decides on the split - and if the normal owner does not like it, they don't have to enter into the agreement. The thing is to agree beforehand how it's going to be done.

Just my $.02!

Christy

Striped!

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Debra and Diana
Camlon Reptiles

Email Camlon Reptiles

I also doubt that the person with the male spider agreed to a deal with a 50/50 split. I would never agree to that kind of deal. The best offer I have had was....I hope you all are sitting down!.... This guy called me and asked me if instead of him buying a spider male from me.. would I be interested in just giving it to himand when he was able to breed him with one of his girls he would give me..."the pick of the litter." I laughed and hung up. That guy was clueless. Getting back to point at hand.. I agree that the spider with spots on the sides is not weird or rare. I don't agree that it is even worth less at these prices we are seeing now. All spiders have the ability to throw striped, spotted, reduced, high white, low white and so on. It does not make that spider weaker. The gene is what it is. I believe it is a preference thing and you should pick one that catches your eye. Regardless all the designer crosses you will make are "cool".

If I were you I would just be greatful that you have been given that oppurtunity and take the male spider and raise him and breed him and enjoy!

Just my opinion.

Mike King
MK Reptiles
www.mkreptiles.com