Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i don't know if my title is news, but i think i have an interesting development in the incubator...
best i know, there are currently three "types" of advertised axanthics in brooksi
-llemke
-"new england"
- a black and white type that has been more prevalent in recent years.
the llemke and new england types are compatible and when crossed produce 100% axanthics. i don't know if they are any different from one another other than some out breeding for a number of generations to create an "improved" new england line. i saw the black and white type only two years ago, obviously others have more experience with it and I hope you will comment on whether it is or isn't compatible with other strains.
ANYHOW onto business-
I bred a snow brooksi (axanthic x albino) female to a male axanthic white side this spring, by any punnett square all the offspring should be axanthic and double heterozygous for albino and white side. the eggs started pipping tonight, with a bunch of purplish heads (axanthic) sticking out, and two whitish normal looking snouts...if the axanthism of both adults was allelic, the hatchlings would all look the same, i believe.
comments? quadruple hets? (axanthic1/axanthic2/albino/whiteside)...does white side mess with the axanthic trait?
i guess i will know more (or maybe less!!!)after all are out of the egg.
daveb

Rick Trenny of Renegade Reptiles crossed the two aformention axanthics and got normal looking young last year. He sold them as double hets. I think Horridus who posts here has a pair of these.

>>Rick Trenny of Renegade Reptiles crossed the two aformention axanthics and got normal looking young last year. He sold them as double hets. I think Horridus who posts here has a pair of these.

which did he cross_the black and whites to llemke?
daveb

That's true, I haven't been able to get accurate complete history on the animals but it was reported that the parents were a Lemke strain & BHB strain, we shall see if there is an obvious difference (beyond regular getula sibling variation) when they hatch out in 2008. I would guess that it's the same thing seen in "Charcoal" & "Anery A" Corns....as more and more people work with brooks and the number of mutations things like this will continue to pop up...I mean there's already 4-5 types of non alleic hypomelanism and 3 types of axanthism in guttata & counting....

Your snow is probably made with the black and white axanthic. If you got your snow from Tim Ricks or Steve Osborne it is probably het for the blue axanthics, and that is why it threw some axanthics when bred to the axanthic whiteside. Alot of Tim's snows will produce both types of axanthic because he did some crossing of those lines.
thanks
Jeff

>>Your snow is probably made with the black and white axanthic. If you got your snow from Tim Ricks or Steve Osborne it is probably het for the blue axanthics, and that is why it threw some axanthics when bred to the axanthic whiteside. Alot of Tim's snows will produce both types of axanthic because he did some crossing of those lines.
>>thanks
>>Jeff

Jeff,
the snow is from tim rick's line, and the axanthic ws is the one i got from you in '04. well, now that i know some mixing occurred, i wonder what axanthic gene(s) are in the axanthic white side? did you get yours from tim?
i bred the same male to a ghost female, i wonder what will appear from those eggs. never a dull moment...
thanks,
daveb

The ghost bred to the axanthic ws will produce all blue axanthics. I have never seen a black & white axanthic come from from the ws line. The reason why the lines are mixed in the snows is because he made double het for snows with the black & white axanthics first. He later used lavenders from this double het breeding to make new double hets with the blue axanthic. Some of these lavenders were het for the black & white axanthics. This is why some of the snows and hets throw both lines of axanthics. The ws originated from a blue axanthic and were never bred into the snow line.

Jeff

Which of the two stains of axanthics produce the Pearl phase snow brooksi. I will assume hey are from the Lemke strain because I see that Isis Reptiles has them and they got their stock from Lemke after he passed away.

You are correct it is the Lemke axanthic.
Jeff

so would that mean your WS and your snow are different strains and one is het for the other strain?

based on the above "theory" the axanthics are def. 2x het for WS and Lavender and the hets WILL be quad hets (axanthic 1, axanthic 2, lavender, WS) like you said in your post... but how do we differentiate the strains? both animals are 2x HomoZ so there isn't a way to determine that way... guess there will be more info in 2-4yrs.

Thanx for sharing.

~Z
-----
Royal Blue ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

___

signature file edited 4/22/06; contact an admin.

It often conflicts with reality. With this stuff, we old timers understood that while it mostly works, its only a guide and not law. Hmmmmmmmmmm law is broken all the time and sometimes not by crimminals.

Albinism pops up out of nowhere. Other traits do not exactly follow math formulas. And lastly, we keepers do not exactly understand the actual or real history of our own individual animals. For instance, in order to work, you must have pure recessive/dominance or pure co-dominace. That means the trait must not be influenced by any other factor or gene. The problem is, color and pattern is influenced by factors we do not understand. Such things as incubation conditions and enviornmental conditions, have weak but apparent influence.

Some traits are attracted or influenced, by other traits. Math does not reflect this.

One reason I hold such squares are punnant and Kai(Chi) as only an idea or direction, but not all incompassing. The problem is, both only reflect what we input in them. Not what needs to be input. So they are prejidiced by us. Not by the animals.

If you consider, most biologist consider reptiles to be non social. If you break down what social is, its merely attracting or repelling members of your own kind(actually both) When using math(these squares) the subjects cannot attract or repell, if they do, then these formulas are of no use. The traits used in these formulas must be random and independant.

Now for the shocker, these formulas are great if you already have complete understanding of the subject(input the right characters), they are only a means of expression. They are not accurate at predicting what you do not understand. The reason is, you must already know what is influening their actions, if you don't know, then math will not tell you. Cheers

i am certainly not disappointed by what i see so far. actually after 10-11 years of predictable results ( i know, not really alot of time) it is exhilarating for something out of the ordinary to appear. even if it is only unexpected by me. hahaha

daveb