Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have had a single male 3-Toed Box Turtle for about 15 years. We estimate that he's about 30 years old at this time, but don't know for sure. He was a very sick; chewed-up quite severely by a dog, was kept in a filthy water tank, fungal/bacteria infections galore - basically, a half dead little guy when someone dropped him off at my local pet store. Since they knew I did wildlife rescue (but mostly mammalian and avian) and already had a Reeves turtle, they asked if I wanted to take him/try to save him.

He quickly got healthy and strong with my good husbandry, and has been a vibrantly healthy guy ever since. However, I've felt for years that he really would be even happier if he had a companion (of the same species, of course).

So I've been seeking out the "right" companion for him for years and years... Since I have been involved in animal rescue for most of my life, I'm not a fan of buying from pet stores - everyone under my care has come to me as a rescue or inheritance situation - so I was looking aggressively, but also waiting for the "right one" to come along.

After looking in rescue and on Craig's List for the past 5-6 years, I finally found a healthy, outgoing, active female for him and picked her up today. Yippee! I'm very excited.

I currently have them in a 10'x2' (indoor) enclosure that is divided in half with a piece of Plexiglas (so 5'x2' per turtle). They can see each other, but not interact directly yet. After being home just a few hours, she already ate without any hesitation, is super active, inquisitive and seems really spunky.

At first, the both acted like they were very interested in getting to each other - spending a lot of time at the Plexiglas looking at each other and doing some interesting behaviors. However - the situation has changed so that Mishima (my guy) has been non-stop desperately clawing at the Plexiglas divider to try and get through to her for the better part of the afternoon and is still going at it. He seems really obsessed and even a bit crazed. Is this love at first sight or does he want to kill her? Can they be territorial? Can turtles experience what we call "barrier aggression" in canines? Is this going to stress out Mishima too much? Have I made a mistake? She seems much more relaxed about the whole thing than he is, and seems a bit more interested in checking out the new digs.

I plan on keeping them separate for a while in this indoor enclosure (before moving them outside to a larger outdoor enclosure) to ensure her good health and plan on introducing them slowly. She does seem to be quite healthy - only thing I see is she has what looks like perhaps what was old bite marks (from a dog?) in her shell - the are old wounds though and the shell is otherwise is good shape, nice and firm, dry and mostly clean. I did see some black hard crud looking stuff on the back edges of the carapace - I plan on soaking her and cleaning her tomorrow - didn't want to do too much the first day and overwhelm her. But honestly, she seems totally well-adjusted and is one of the most outgoing turtles I have met - she hasn't once hissed or "boxed" herself into her shell. She's pretty strong, too, which is a good sign.

I'm just not sure how long the quarantine should be - so if people can give me an idea of what is customary when adding a new animal to an existing enclosure, that would be great. And if those with more turtle experience than me can also help me in explain what Mishima's crazed behavior might be and how to most safely introduce them, that would be great too.

I also have a wonderful geriatric female Reeves turtle, at least 30 years old, we know for sure (I'm her 4th person - and I knew the people who had her before) - in her own outdoor 300 gallon pond. I have had Martha for about the same period, a little longer, than Mishima. I formerly had a really fun male Asian Soft-shelled Turtle (Amyda cartilaginea) for about 12 years before he died - seemed like he just got old. So only three turtles total so far, over many years, although I do read a lot/have lots of books on their care, and try to be the best "turtle" mom I can be. But I can't find any good guidelines on introducing new animals to one another, what behaviors I can expect in introducing a younger (I think she's about 11 years old by reading my this - http://www.mdc.mo.gov/nathis/herpetol/boxturtles/ on counting the number of scutes on her plastron) female to an older male, and quarantine periods in my books.

TIA - all suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Kasie

I would recommend removing the plexigalss barrier and replacing it with a piece of plywood or some other material that the turtles cannot see through.

It is not unusual for box turtles to try to get through barriers that they can see through (this is one of the reasons why glass tanks are not considered to be suitable enclosures for them).

I don't think that there is any clear consensus on what the duration of quarantine should be, so I'm reluctant to tell you how many weeks/months you should keep your box turtles separate, but do consider this: a diseased box turtle can appear to be asymptomatic for a long time before anything starts to go wrong.

The longer the quarantine, the better. I've heard anything from 4 weeks to 18 months: hopefully some of the other posters here can make some suggestions.

I'll link you to an online article on the subject in a minute.

Thanks! That link is really helpful - 90 days seems long, but I have done longer periods before introducing sick birds to my own. I guess it depends on how healthy she remains and her vet check results.

This Plexiglas partition has always been there for Mishima, as up until recently (when I completely secured Martha's pond area to prevent raccoon invasion possibilities), I put Martha in the other side every night and during the day on occasion, too. The rest of the enclosure is wood, however. Mishe has never had an interest in the Plexiglas before, not at all. I built this enclosure about 6 years ago, so it's not new to him.

We lived in a tiny garden apartment previously (I'm in San Francisco, city of) and although we stepped out to a great garden there, we weren't permitted to house any of the pets outdoors, and I had limited space inside, so I made the biggest enclosure I could possibly make in our 500 sq ft adobe. The turtles and birds went outside regularly though as I work from home, and put them out while I was home during the day. We bought a lower level flat with a 100% concrete garden space (yuck!) very end of 2004, and we're doing a lot of construction, so I still use their old enclosure in the house, but Martha has her new pond area outside (which she loves!), and Mishima has full run of the garden area regularly since there's no way to escape the way it is situated. But I put everyone in at night and when I am not home during the day - just not comfortable leaving them out there without supervision - there's no way dogs can get into the area, but raccoons can. (Though I haven't seen any yet), and well - I just get worried about things that could possibly happen to them. Once we are done with all the house construction, we'll be landscaping the garden area, taking all the concrete out and planting with 100% turtle friendly plants to create one big turtle enclosure out of the garden.

Anyway...he only started clawing at it the minute he realized there was a new box turtle on the other side - basically, when he saw her. Today, she has only gone over to the Plexiglas to look at him a few times - but she isn't clawing at it, or pacing at it like he is. Actually, today (I wrote the original post last night) he seems calmer than he did last night, and less crazed.

But I need to get some stuff at the hardware store today and get some more silkworms for them today anyway, so I will pick something up to opaque out the Plexiglas, if you feel it will help them get along better.

Both of them went to sleep in their hidey areas after "lights out" last night - so, at least he's not staying up all night trying to see her.

Maybe he's just really excited to have a girlfriend???

Kasie

Just a couple of cents to throw in.
Box turtles are territorial animals, females rarely fight with one another. Males will fight other males but they generally won't fight with females.
Males will harass females relentlessly to mate which means the female might turn around and bite the male. You need to consider keeping two enclosures all the time to make sure this female gets some rest away from the male and also be prepared for nesting areas and lots of eggs laying in the future.
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PHRatz

I knew that getting another male was not advised because they can fight. That's why it took me so long to find him the right companion (basically, the same species, healthy, not too young and female)! Good to know that females and males do not usually have conflicts, other than getting pestered and needing some alone time - good to know. I will make sure she has a place to "get away" from his amorous advances, and will use it as needed. Thanks! I really hope he's not too obnoxious with her.

Well, I don't breed my pets, so with the non-spayed/neutered animals, I simply take the eggs away so that they do not hatch. I hope this will work with these two. I'm a very diligent, observant and "doting" animal guardian, so I hope to be able to get the eggs after she lays them. I don't plan on making more turtles. Each new animal I take in, I plan for a lifetime of care (and even write them into my will for after I'm gone), and I know my limits as to how many I can care for properly, and give each the individual attention they deserve. Getting a new turtle is a huge deal for me - and I don't plan on adding to the number I have after this. Living in the city of San Francisco, my garden (a rarity it itself) isn't going to be large enough to keep more than two IMO. Once completed, the garden itself will be the turtle enclosure and will be about 500 sq ft or so in size - which will be just about right for the two of them, I hope.

Thanks so much!

Kasie

>>Well, I don't breed my pets, so with the non-spayed/neutered animals, I simply take the eggs away so that they do not hatch. I hope this will work with these two. I'm a very diligent, observant and "doting" animal guardian, so I hope to be able to get the eggs after she lays them. I don't plan on making more turtles. Each new animal I take in, I plan for a lifetime of care (and even write them into my will for after I'm gone), and I know my limits as to how many I can care for properly, and give each the individual attention they deserve. Getting a new turtle is a huge deal for me - and I don't plan on adding to the number I have after this. Living in the city of San Francisco, my garden (a rarity it itself) isn't going to be large enough to keep more than two IMO. Once completed, the garden itself will be the turtle enclosure and will be about 500 sq ft or so in size - which will be just about right for the two of them, I hope.

Kasie you sound like me!
I hover over them so much, some people think it's too much but if you check on them every day, you know when something isn't right.
I'll keep hovering & I have them in my will too.
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PHRatz

Here's a link:
Link

Here's more helpful reading:
Link

I believe your male Reeves Turtle is behaving / acting normally when he is seeing a female of his species. His intentions as expected would be to breed her. More importantly are some facets with Quarantine.

Regarding Quarantine.... It's very important to realize that an animal may be infectious without appearing to be sick itself. All new additions to a personal collection from the wild, or animals up for rescue would be strong candidates for appropriate measures of Quarantine.

The following is not meant in any way to be construed as negative; but to inform, so as to affect the best outcome for your boxie.

Consider that the new addition can be a carrier of several protozoan diseases or a much more serious viral pathogen via blood borne parasites. Therefore keeping the new addition as far away from existing healthy chelonians is imperative. Avoid the sharing of food preparation surfaces, utensils and CLOSE proximity of suspected new animals. Does your Plexiglas barrier keep urine and fecal contents from ever seeping into the established Reeves Turtle's quarters?

Can live food that has been in your quarantine's turtle's area have even a slim chance of ever crossing over/ under your barrier? (worms, crickets or their young) Viral pathogens have been known to pass from one chelonian to another via air currents in close proximity. Unwanted harmful bacteria can live in the soil and grow underneath silently feeding on uneaten foodstuffs and waste matter. When you water one environment does/can the liquid ever seep into the established healthy animals side? Do you change your footwear when you travel from one section of your Quarantine to the established healthy turtles area?

Before learning of many individuals who lost entire colonies of reptiles, I would have felt that the above is a bit overkill. However at this time, I'd rather err on being over cautious than learn of a repeat devastating incident.

Ric

Sorry, must have been confusing with my mentioning of everyone, but it's a male Three Toed Box Turtle I was describing, not a Reeves.

He's settled down, BTW. He is now going about his usual business, as usual - and only going over from time to time to look at her through the Plexiglas (usually when she's over looking at him), but not clawing at the barrier or acting crazed to get to her anymore.

Good points to consider!

As far as I can tell, there isn't any way that anything (soil/substrate, water/fluids, worms, etc.) can get from the one side to the other. The barrier is 3 feet high x 2 feet wide, 1/4 inch thick, and sealed with aquarium cement around all sides (well, the three that touch the enclosure anyway). We live in a one room place (an old storefront/blacksmith shop), so they are going to be sharing air no matter what (even with a 12 foot ceiling). I think I'd be more concerned about air-space/proximity if she had a respiratory infection, but perhaps this is being not so smart/foolhardy though???

They aren't housed in an area that I walk into; but I do a lot of hand washing as a rule anyway (I am "immune-compromised" myself from chemotherapy/lupus, so I am very cautious, but not neurotic/germ-phobic). So far, I am doing all my regular husbandry safety precautions that I learned as a wildlife rescuer a very long time ago (haven't done wildlife rescue in years, but that stuff just stuck with me, also working as a vet tech, and going to vet school for a while) - so no shared anything at all, and handling/feeding/cleaning the newbie last after everyone else is cared for first.

The new female wasn't wild caught - or at least not in the recent past anyway - and from her friendly and fearless behavior, she seems CB - but you never know unless you know for sure, right? She wasn't a rescue, either. She came from at least decent husbandry as far as I can tell. This was a local hobbyist who wanted to get rid of two males from his collection, but when I talked to him and explained the situation/what I was looking for, he was kind enough to sell me one of his females instead.

Thank you so much for your help!

BTW - I just finished clipping Mishima's nails. He was pretty good for it, and I didn't need any oops/styptic powder, so all went well. They look less Godzilla-ish - he sure had grown some pretty crazy claws! MUCH easier than clipping my teeny, tiny, smaller than a toothpick, ancient Blue Capped Cordon Bleu finch's nails! I'm literally sweat when I do his - they are SO small, it's nerve-wracking - plus, he's just so very old, I hate to stress him out at all.

I too was going to point out your quarantine. It's likely adequate, but not stringent. As a vet tech, I"m sure you realize that it's to late to be stringent once an outbreak has occured. I would move the new turtle right out of that pen.

Another point to mention is regarding the egg laying. You mentioned that the new female had some scarring. During future examinations, try to determine if there is cause for concern regarding eggs passing.

Have fun with your new turtle

Ian

Hi Ian,

Do you mean to check and see if she has eggs inside? I saw a post or webpage that showed how to do this exam - is this what you mean? Please calrify. This is my first experience with a female Box Turtle and I dodn't want to miss anything.

Thanks!

Kasie

Just make sure the shell is intact and normal around the pelvis and cloaca. A deformed shell can sometimes impede egg passage. For example, if the pelvis was crushed, and healed, the injury is long gone but the girdle is decreased. I just wasn't sure as to how large of an injury you were talking about.

As to egg detection, you can sometimes feel cranial to the hind-legs with the turtle's front side raised. X-rays would be the definative method if need be.

Ian

Hi Kasie,

Sorry about my misreading. I planned on responding to nine posts in several forums and obviously had not read all throughly. I skimmed over many posts and assumed some statements incorrectly.

You were clear in stating it was a male Three Toed Box Turtle and not a not a Reeves. Again I assumed your enclosure was outdoors. An indoor one with sealed silicone floor joints makes a drastic difference with respect to crossing over of pathogens. Thanks for explaining.

Having lupus is a phenomenal challenge; and caring for animals simultaneously is unfathomable for me. I applaud your tenacity and positive intentions.

I'm glad the nail clipping went so well. He definitely is less Godzilla-ish!
You must have nerves of steel to cut a finch's nails; and very good eyes!

I like how you captured your boxie's eyes in the pic below!

Regards,

Ric

Hi Ric,

>Sorry about my misreading. I planned on responding to nine >posts in several forums and obviously had not read all >thoroughly. I skimmed over many posts and assumed some >statements incorrectly.

No biggie. I do the same thing sometimes, I run several websites, and email lists and help a lot of people with dog/cat health issues, so I'm constantly answering emails and sometimes mix things up, too. I totally understand.

>An indoor one with sealed silicone floor joints makes a >drastic difference with respect to crossing over of pathogens. >Thanks for explaining.

Cool - I think it should be fine. I hope!

>Having lupus is a phenomenal challenge; and caring for animals >simultaneously is unfathomable for me. I applaud your tenacity >and positive intentions.

Lupus sucks - but what are you gonna do, right? Well, my boyfriend helps a ton with absolutely everything - but it's true that the turtles and birds are pretty much my thing, more or less.

>I'm glad the nail clipping went so well. He definitely is less >Godzilla-ish!

Me too - I wish I had done it sooner! I feel stupid to have let them get so long, - but they really never seemed to bother him. Getting your response got my attention - I didn't realize it could be detrimental.

I had a hen (chicken) for 15 years as a pet growing up and she got these crazy claws during the last few years of her life, too. I never had to clip them until she got older. And she was an outdoor chicken that enjoyed quite a bit of scratching all day.

>I like how you captured your boxie's eyes in the pic below!

Thanks - I love him to death. He's such a great guy. I hope all works out with the new female. I'm going to try and take some photos of her today and upload them to the group.

Are your photos turtles from your collection or from the wild? They have gorgeous shells and markings. Very cool.

The new girl is a bit of a "plain Jane" as far as markings/color goes - but it's sort of endearing in a way - and Mishima has such a messed up looking shell form his previous abuse, they will probably make a cute couple. Hey, he couldn't have snagged a supermodel being such an old guy with that crazy shell and scary nails (thanks to me!)

This message board has been a wonderful resource - thanks!

Cheers,

Kasie

Kasie,
"Are your photos turtles from your collection or from the wild? They have gorgeous shells and markings. Very cool."

The photos are from my collection of captive bred T. c. bauri.
aka Florida Box Turtles.

I have Ornates, Three Toed, and Easterns, but my main focus and collection is the Florida Boxies.

Thanks,

Ric

>Before learning of many individuals who lost entire colonies of reptiles, I would have felt that the above is a bit overkill. However at this time, I'd rather err on being over cautious than learn of a repeat devastating incident.
>>
>>Ric

Ric,
I always hesitate to post my opinions on quarantine because I do go for the overkill way of doing things. In the past people have gotten mad at me, sent me hate mail, told me what an idiot I am all because I say quarantine for the maximum amount of time.
When I began using the reptile vet I use today she told me that during her first year in practice here a tortoise breeder called on her to treat her very sick animals. The vet found that they were suffering from protazoa parasites. The breeder lost 40 percent of her animals and how it happened was.. you guessed it, she'd bought a new one over the Internet and did not quarantine!

What scares me is that we have the sulcata in the yard now. I've come home in the past to find that someone has put a turtle in my yard. I fear that happening again one day.
I never let a new turtle near one of my pets if it's never been tested.
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PHRatz

"I always hesitate to post my opinions on quarantine because I do go for the overkill way of doing things. In the past people have gotten mad at me, sent me hate mail, told me what an idiot I am all because I say quarantine for the maximum amount of time. ?What scares me is that we have the sulcata in the yard now. I've come home in the past to find that someone has put a turtle in my yard. I fear that happening again one day. ?I never let a new turtle near one of my pets if it's never been tested."?-----?PHRatz

I think your many posts and valued advice over several forums have earned you a pedestaled niche with respect to posting.

Know that for the majority of us; your opinions are always welcome.

Your concern with individuals putting turtles in your yard is well validated. I'm sure the individuals mean well as they feel your a turtle lover; and have extended knowledge of chelonian husbandry. However as you previously stated; I'd isolate new and established chelonians.

Thanks for your dedication, and time answering many posts!

Ric

I didn't mean to sound whiney. I think I was just grumbling because I get so frustrated.
I've been caring for someone else's turtles this week, I wasn't heard when I said see a vet a few months ago. These turtles saw the vet the day before the owner went on vacation so I've been doing all the treatment ordered. This map & RES have been kept together, the map had a few white spots a few months ago when I wasn't heard but now it's turned into this & the RES has it too.

Now while the person is on vacation I'll be taking the turtles to the vet for their check up tomorrow, I think the vet is going to have to implant a feeding tube for the map because I can't get that little booger to eat for me.
Hopefully the owner is going to want to pay for the feeding tube because one way or another it's going to happen if the vet thinks it needs to be done.
If I'd only been heard then this wouldn't be happening now.

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PHRatz

Thanks for the kind words and thank you Rick for posting here. I always enjoy what you have to say, you always have such detailed and accurate info to share. I can tell you've really done your homework and have a lot of experience so it's wonderful that you are willing to share that with others.

This is a great board because so many people share so much helpful info for others.
I post on other boards but I always come here first when I sign on.
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PHRatz