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We’ve been working with Type II Anery’s for quite a while now, and it seems that our breedings have possibly raised more questions than answers. We know that we aren’t alone in trying to figure out the secret to these guys, so we wanted to share what we do know so far about the Type II’s we have bred…be prepared – this is going to be long! lol

In working with Type II Anery’s, we have noticed that there are a couple different looks. Specifically, there are what we call Black Tail Type II Anery’s that are very dark in coloration, have a solid black tail and don’t really develop the yellow or brown pigmentation that a typical anery develops. These are the Type II’s that most people think of when they think about Type II’s and I believe that these are the Type II’s that have been incorporated into most breeding projects so far. These are the Type II’s that make up most of our collection of Nicaraguan Anery’s. Below is an example of one of these…

The other look of the Type II Anery’s look more like the Colombian Anery’s in that they have more of a grayish coloration, as opposed to the black tail and saddles, and they do develop some yellowish coloration, similar to the Colombian Anery’s, even though they are pure Nicaraguan. Below is an example of one of these….

Several years ago, there was a guy named Bryant King who used to post frequently on these forums. He worked primarily, if not exclusively, with Nicaraguan boas and he had a bunch of cool morphs. Namely, he had what he believed to be a naturally occurring Nicaraguan Ghost. This animal was a male and it was imported from Nicaragua. At the time, there was a lot of controversy over this animal because while Bryant believed him to be a Ghost, many people disagreed and felt that the odds of this happening naturally were too slim, the animal didn’t really look like a Ghost, etc. I don’t really remember everything that was said, but needless to say, he caught a lot of flack. In 2001, he bred this “Ghost” male to 2 completely normal pure Nicaraguan females. When the litter(s) were born, 50% of the babies were hypomelanistic, proving that the alleged ghost male was, at the very least, a Hypo.

Bryant was in dental school at the time and due to the demands of school, he decided to get out of boa breeding. He sold his entire collection and since we love the Nicaraguan boas, and were working with a lot of them, we bought a lot of animals from his collection. I think the Ghost male passed away prior to his sale of the collection, so we didn’t get him, but we did pick out the nicest (in our opinion) of his Hypo daughters, which we intended to breed to an unrelated black tail anery down the line in order to prove whether the “Ghost” was in fact a Ghost. Since the Anery’s weren’t the main thrust of our projects, we regrettably only bought one of his daughters. Here is a picture of her (it’s old but the only one I have…she was pregnant in this photo)….

In the meantime, we also bought what we believed to be a naturally occurring Ghost male. It was in 2002. He had been imported from Nicaragua and was farm born. Same thing basically with Bryant King’s Ghost…it clearly looked like a Ghost to us, but there were many skeptics out there. People seemed to think the odds of it happening in nature were just too slim. However, for a while there were so many hypos and Type II’s being imported that to us, it didn’t seem that unrealistic…obviously they aren’t that uncommon in Nicaragua. Here is a picture of our naturally occurring Ghost male as a baby. He has darkened considerably with age and has developed some yellowish coloration, but still has no sign of red whatsoever on him.

We took our time growing up these animals…the Nicaraguans are pretty small as adults, and we feel that it is very important to make sure that they have the age and maturity that they need before we breed them. So we didn’t breed the Hypo daughter of Bryant’s Ghost until last year. She was 4 years old. Anyway, we bred her to a BLACK TAIL Type II Anery and were really hoping to prove that Bryant’s original Ghost male was actually a Ghost. Unbeknownst to us, Gus Rentfro had a male Hypo son of Bryant’s Ghost and he bred him last year as well, but to a normal Nicaraguan female (I’m not sure if that female was a littermate to the Hypo or not). As far as I know, Gus didn’t know anything about Bryant’s Ghost and just believed his male Hypo to be a “regular” hypo Nicaraguan.

So, here is where the confusion begins….when Gus’ litter was born, he had a Ghost, an Anery that had the more Colombian kind of look, a Hypo and a few normals in the litter. Some of you may remember that he posted pictures of this litter here on the forum. After contacting Gus, we realized that his Hypo male that father the litter was a sibling to our Hypo female. Gus’ litter, which was a het to het breeding, proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Bryant King’s Ghost was actually a Ghost!!! We were thrilled because #1 it finally answered the question about whether Bryant’s male was a naturally occurring Ghost, and the suspense was killing me, and #2 we ASSUMED that it meant that when our female Hypo that was a sibling to Gus’ male gave birth a few weeks from then that we would also have Ghosts and Type II Anery’s. After talking to Gus, he said that he really wasn’t interested in going down the morph path, and we arranged to buy the entire litter and the parents (so, the Hypo het Ghost male sibling to our female and the Normal het Type II Anery female). Here is a picture of the Ghost from that litter and a picture of the Anery from the litter….notice the difference from the Black tail anery’s that make up the majority of the Type II’s in our collections.


And the Anery:

Ok, so now we know that the Hypo’s from Bryant are het Type II Anery and we are dying to see the babies that our female produces because we can’t wait for some Ghosts. Well, our girl gives birth a few weeks later and THERE ARE NO GHOSTS AND NO ANERY’S!!!!!!!! There were beautiful hypos but what the heck does it mean that there were no ghosts or anery's???? At that point (remember this was last year) we figured that there were 3 possibilities: Either our female Hypo was confused with another hypo that he had and wasn’t actually related to Bryant’s Ghost OR Black Tail Anery’s are not compatible with the lighter variety of Nicaraguan Anery’s like Gus produced OR Black Tail Type II Anery’s ARE NOT anery’s at all! More breeding needed to be done to rule out some possibilities.

This year we bred the Hypo Het Ghost male that used to be Gus’ to our female Hypo that we bred to a Black Tail Type II Anery last year only to produce no Ghosts or Anery’s. Sure enough, we had a healthy litter that included Ghosts! The odds were not on our side in that we didn’t produce any regular Type II Anery’s, but we were very lucky to produce Ghosts!!! This breeding ruled out possibility number one….our female was definitely the daughter of Bryant King’s Ghost, but that still leaves us with the other two possibilities. Are the Black Tail Anery’s simply not compatible with the lighter Type II Anery Nics?? Or does this mean that we didn’t get any anery’s last year because the black tail anery’s are SOMETHING, but that something isn’t Anerytheristic???? Is it possible that the Black Tail Anery’s are just Hypermelanistic or can they possibly be Axanthic but not Anerytheristic (not sure how the genetics would work on lacking yellow pigment but still having red)?? If they aren’t actually Anerytheristic but are something else, would that explain why there haven’t been any Blizzards born yet?
Here is a picture of a Ghost from this year:

And here is one compared with a sibling (possible super hypo poss het ghost):

In a foolish attempt to create room for more babies last year, we sold ALL of the offspring from our HYPO het Type II to Black TAIL Anery litter. These babies would really help answer some serious questions about the nature of the Type II Anery gene. While they are only 50% possible het for the lighter variety of Type II Anery, they are 100% het for whatever the Black Tail Anery is. So, if our customers breed them to black tail anery’s (or better yet HET’s for black tail Anery, as I feel that het to het breedings are the surest way to prove a recessive gene) and produce Ghosts, it will answer our questions for sure…we would know that if Ghosts are produced, Black Tails are in fact Anery’s but just aren’t compatible with the lighter variety of Type II Nics. If NO GHOSTS are produced from breeding them, we can assume that black tail anery’s aren’t anery’s but are something else. Then further work would need to be done to prove what that “something else” is. (To our customers who have these animals….We are counting on you!!! lol)

On another note, we also bred our male naturally occurring Ghost this year. In previous years we didn’t feel that he had the weight to sustain him through breeding season (he had been a picky eater for a period) but this year he started eating regularly and we felt confident that we could breed him. Anyway, here is the really funny thing….We got an ENTIRE litter of Hypos! I don't have any pictures of those babies yet because we haven't had time but they are very nice hypos too! We bred him to a female Nic that we got as a baby because we thought she was really nice… it’s possible that she is a Hypo and we never realized it, but I don’t think so. I think he turned out to be a Super!! Imagine THOSE odds!!! lol A Naturally Occurring SUPER GHOST!!! We will breed him to the normal het Type II Anery that we got from Gus next year to be sure if he is a super, but for now that’s how it looks. Also, we are 99% sure that he is the lighter variety of Nicaraguan Anery because as a baby he looked exactly like the Ghost we got from Gus and the Ghosts we produced this year.

If you are still reading, I apologize for the lengthy post, but I couldn’t figure out how to make it any shorter without leaving out important information. I will try to answer any questions anybody might have but basically, the more I think about it, the more questions I come up with myself. Unfortunately, these breedings have made things about as clear as mud, and have left me with more questions than answers! Lol I would also love to hear feedback from anyone else working with Type II's, especially anyone who has done het to het breedings.

Thanks for reading my longwinded post!!
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Amanda Burke
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Burke Reptiles Website

big! It makes it really hard to read! Oh well!
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Amanda Burke
Email
Burke Reptiles Website

NIIIIIICE !!!!!!!!!!!
OMG-SH ?
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Joel Pretz
JP Reptiles

Nice post Amanda ! Thanks for sharing .

I too believe that there is axanthic and anery genes involved in some and some that express both genes in them .

Stav

np

That is a tremendous post! A whole lot of information that's for sure, to try to digest. This points out something I have been trying to express for years. Genetics are (or is it "is) not simple. Period. Most people want their genetics to be either, simple recessive, dominant or co-dominant. This is not the reality though is it? It's a lot like setting a two year old on the floor with one of those boards that have three holes in it. A round hole, a square hole and a triangular hole. Then give the little fella a parallelogram and watch him be frustrated trying to fit it into one of those holes. It just can't be done. Genetics of many things are far more complicated and intricate than we would like them to be. It's just real life. For instance; Some Jungles are prone to have really aberrant babies. Some still produce Jungles all right, but not nearly so crazy patterned offspring. Diluted or leaky gene? In genetics, there is no such thing. A gene or allele on a gene either says yes or no. It is on or off. Whatever causes something that is presumed to be diluting or making the gene "leaky" is a separate gene. Other genetic factors influence how a genetic characteristic is expressed. Another example are Pastel Hypos or Pastel Albinos. The extra beautiful color is not attached to the Albino gene but it certainly influences how exactly that Albino gene is fully expressed. That same as some animals, when bred to a Motley, will produce those perfect connected Motleys everyone wants so bad while other breedings do not. They are still Motleys but other characteristics have an impact upon how the Motley trait is expressed.

I certainly have not digested the Type II Anery dilemma at all. The misinformation that has been out regarding them is abundant though. That much I do know. It's great fun trying to get a handle on this stuff. Figuring stuff out and sharing that with others is one of the most rewarding parts of being a little mad scientist. Breed this to that and see what you get. It's nice to be able to do more and more of that with some level of predictability. Also, I think just about everything we see is genetic. Figuring out how and why it works like it does is the challenge. A challenge that in some cases may not ever be completely understood. So we go on and try to get a better handle on things. It is part of what makes the whole thing such great fun. Thanks for the really long post Amanda!

Thank you for coming to the forum lately....

Your input is very valuable and sharing this info gives people the ability to learn and not just carlessly go about breeding boas...Some may say that sharing this info will hurt the market....but I think we are just getting the foundation built...enough of this ...the sky is falling attitude...we have not even scratched the surface of things to come!

Thanks Jeff!

Andy Federico
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reading my post...especially since I know it's difficult with the huge pictures. I appreciate your feedback and look forward to any discussions that this topic might bring about.
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Amanda Burke
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Burke Reptiles Website

Amanda, I want to give you a special thank you!!!!!

You have always shared your thoughts on this forum and provide a very positive attitude on this forum!!!

THANK YOU!!!!

Your post concerning the Anery type 2 is Awesome!!!

I think that when this info does get figured out...the world of boas will see things like never before! It is very possible that I believe the boa world will see a lucistic boa or some type of crystal boa in the not too distant future!

I think your insight being shared is priceless!!

Thank you again Amanda!!!

Andy Federico
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I really appreciate your kind words. I wish I had the time to check the forum more regularly because I always love seeing other people's pictures and posts as well.
Thanks again!
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Amanda Burke
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Burke Reptiles Website

That is a great post, thanks for sharing your project and outcomes! How exciting! (or maybe.. frustrating since it takes so long to figure out!)
So no one has bred a type II dark tail to type II dark tail? or
het dark tail to het dark tail? I wondered back in the day if they were simply hypomelanistic instead of anery... or maybe also axanthic... oh the questions! They never stop!
I have no experience with Type IIs, so nothing to add, but I wish you luck!!
-April
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

I do know of a few litters of black tail anery to black tail anery and those litters resulted in an entire litter of what we are calling black tail anery's. I don't know of any het black tail to het black tail litters, but I would be very interested to see what the results of a breeding like that would be.
The problem with both of those breedings as I see it, however, is that while an entire litter of black tail boas as a result of breeding black tail to black tail would be an indication that the look is some type of recessive gene, it doesn't prove that the gene is Anerytherism. Neither does the het to het breeding. That breeding would in my opinion, prove that the gene is recessive if 25% of the litter were black tails, however, it still doesn't tell us what the black tail actually is. Is it Anerytheristic? Is it Hypermelanistic? Is it Axanthic? Does this make sense?
This is why I think that the best way to prove that the Black Tails are in fact Anerytheristic is to either produce a Blizzard or a Ghost with them. The Ghost would be the easier route to go because the odds of having one of those in a litter are better than 1 in 16. But, these breedings would prove anerytherism because they would take away other colors that could otherwise mask red in these boas. So, for example, producing a Ghost with the black tail would take away the black, allowing us to see if there is any red underneath there hiding somewhere. lol
On the other hand, if the Black tails are Hypermelanistic, rather than Anerytheristic, we would have different results. In Blizzard breedings, for example, we might see albinos that are more white in appearance because the heavier concentration of Black in the Black tails would be removed in an albino, leaving more white. However, the lack of Anerytherism (if the Black Tail isn't an anery) would still leave red, so we would see Albinos that are high white, but we would not ever get a Blizzard.
This is partly speculation but I have done alot of thinking about it over the years while we have waited for these various litters, and this is what I have come up with! lol
Again, I'd love to hear any and all feedback on this!
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Amanda Burke
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Burke Reptiles Website

>On the other hand, if the Black tails are Hypermelanistic, rather than Anerytheristic, we would have different results. In Blizzard breedings, for example, we might see albinos that are more white in appearance because the heavier concentration of Black in the Black tails would be removed in an albino, leaving more white. However, the lack of Anerytherism (if the Black Tail isn't an anery) would still leave red, so we would see Albinos that are high white, but we would not ever get a Blizzard.

I am inclined to disagree with this idea. I'd expect an albino hypermelanistic to look like the usual albinos rather than whiter than the usual albinos. In both, you'd be winding up with no black pigment.

I need to spend a lot of time digesting the main post. There is a lot of food for thought there.

Paul Hollander

Hey, Amanda,
Thank you SO much for sharing this information and opening up this conversation. I don't have any answers, but I know that people have been breeding type IIs with a lot of unexpected results. I posted this little dude a while back that was sold to me as a type II, but, in light of his pink cheeks, we thought not. Otherwise, he looks like the brown version of type II anery, especially in the tail. He’s supposedly from a het to het breeding. I’m hoping for more info after this weekend.
Anyway, keep us posted and good luck! Those pure nic type II ghosts are awesome. I think nics may be the "ball pythons" of the boa world.
Also a few quick questions for you:
What sizes are your fully grown adult nics?
What size cages are you keeping them in?
Aaron
Oh, hey-see you in Daytona! I spoke with your Dad on the phone and told him I'd introduce myself. I’ve talked to you a couple of times before as well and have always found you extremely knowledgeable AND very friendly-I really appreciate that!

that people in Daytona all wear nametags with their real name AND their kingsnake screen names! lol It would make it so much easier to put 2 and 2 together and I love meeting people that I see here on the forums! I'll look forward to seeing you there.
Now, in answer to your questions...
Our largest female adult Nic is 6 1/2 feet, however we only have one of those and the rest MAX out at about 5 1/2 to 6 feet. We even have some 5 year old females that are about 4 feet (one that bred successfully this year with a perfect litter).
Our males are about 4 1/2 feet MAX and we have some 3 foot breeder males, which look pretty darn funny making babies! lol
We keep the smaller males in Ball Python freedom breeders and the rest of them in 4 foot breeder racks. We keep breeder females in 4 foot Boaphiles that are 32 inches deep because we like them to have plenty of room.
Thanks for the compliments on our Ghosts...that animal you posted is a very pretty boa and I can see where you thought he might have been anery...he has that look to him.
Well, take care and see you at the show!
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Amanda Burke
Email
Burke Reptiles Website

Ha!
Thanks, Amanda!
Funny, I'll introduce myself by my real name and my KS name when I see you. I've actually thought that would be helpful, too. I'm sure a lot of us know each other and don't even realize it. I went to trade a snake the other day and realized I knew the guy after I got to his house and saw him in person!
Thanks for the good answers. What are the floor dimensions on the ball python cages and the 4 foot racks you mention?...if you don't mind my asking...and, if you keep your 5-6 ft nics in 48x32 cages, what do you keep your 7-8 ft colombians and 8-10 ft BCC (if you have any) in?
Thanks again for your response!
Aaron

Another characteristic that was not discussed in this thread is "eye color". My yearlings (acquired from Ralph Davis) have black (dark brown?) eyes just like the my Leopard and Blood boas.

The background, saddles, and tail coloration on mine are somewhere in between the 2 of yours.

Sorry, but no time for photos (Dad is having surgery tomorrow AM).

Ralph Davis' website ("Collection" page) has some very representative photos of the black eyes and background coloration. (Gosh, I hope I don't get crucified for pointing you all in the direction of a Ball Python website ... nonehteless, Ralph is a good guy and he is going to owe me for sending you his direction.)

I never actually saw those pictures before but it's interesting to note that those have black eyes. Our "black tail anery's" don't have black eyes, so it would indicate that something different might be going on with the two. Wow, there is alot of stuff to think about! lol
I wish you and your Dad the best with his surgery...I really hope everything goes well!
Take care,
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Amanda Burke
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Burke Reptiles Website

Very Cool Amanda, and thanks for sharing.

I actually don't think your findings ad confusion. I think they offer clarity.

I personally think you have just proven that the two lines are INCOMPATIBLE. Just like Ball Pythons, there are certain compatibility issues with the Axanthic triat. All 3 are VERY similar, but aren't compatible. They all 3 make a different looking BLIZZARD, but they are genetic and genetic recessive.

I personally think both lines are Genetic and Recessive. You mentioned something about the Blizzard. It is important to note that NO ONE to my knowlege has ever bred an Albino to a Nic Type 2 anery. This year pete kahl did it with his Sunglow, but we will have to wait quite a while to find out how those turn out. Other then that, I don't know of any other person using the albino with ANY type 2 anery. My DH Blizzards were used with a Type 2 anery that is the EXACT same Type 2 anery from the El Salvador region. This Type 2 anery has been PROVEN recessive. IT takes out all the Red from the Blood, and makes a Pewter. It also is genetic recessive when used with the albino. I just need to make a LIVE one. I have had some HORRIBLE odds this year with many different litters. Some have been good and some have been bad. IT goes to show, there is one thing clear. There are NO guarantees with Boa breeding and numbers. I don't know about the Nic line because I have never bred it more then 1 generation, but it appears that My original Type 2 anery is compatible with the Columbian Line. I think Bill Kirby proved that, but I guess as always, more breedings are always needed. So, that MAY ad to the confusion, but I don't think so.

Again Amanda, I think you just made things a lot clearer rather then Unclear. I agree with Jeffs post about Genetics being not a sure thing, but I also think with Good steady notes, and solid observations will give you some definate answers.

I think you have done a great job in keeping good notes and writing down details of what is happening. This of course gives us greater insight because of what you have done. Thank you, and great post. It is a lot of fun working with these smaller Boas.

By Proving Bryants boa a ghost, It goes to show that they really aren't that rare in the wild. It appears that the Hypo gene is a lot more common, but since they are a lot darker, they seem to thrive in their environment. I wonder if the colors actually work to their advantage in hiding from prey.

Anyway, enough rambling. Thanks for sharing, and best of luck on your projects.

This post is just my opinion. As my wife would say, my opinion is wrong MANY times. lol
Jeremy Stone

I'm glad to get your feedback because I never realized that the Blizzard project was from a different line of Anery's...I always thought they were from the Nic line, so that rules out that possibility! lol It would be interesting to see what would happen if the Nic line were incorporated into this just to help figure out what is going on with them, so I'll look forward to the outcome of Pete's breedings.
I'm really hoping that next year someone who bought one of last year's babies from us that is Hypo het Black tail breeds it to see whether or not ghosts will be produced. Like I said, I think that will be the quickest way to get to the bottom of the Nicaraguan Anery issue. That would tell us if it is a compatibility issue or whether they aren't anery. Plus, if there are Anery's but no ghosts in the litter that would tell us something also.
I have to say that I have always been someone who likes a challenge, and to me this is the best part of boa breeding...spending a long time waiting to get the results of breeding trials and then not having what I'd expect is disappointing to a degree but then the curious side of me perks up like it's a mystery to be figured out! lol It definitely keeps things interesting!!
Anyway, thanks again for the feedback and I wish you the best of luck this season!!
Take care,
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Amanda Burke
Email
Burke Reptiles Website