Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Me again. Are you sick of IDing this snake yet?

I now know that it is ~41 inches long. And he's FIESTY!

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1.1.2 Python regius
0.0.1 Eunectes notaeus
0.0.1 Lampropeltis spp.
5.0.0 Ambystoma mexicanum
1.3.0 Triturus karelinii
1.3.0 Taricha granulosa
0.3.0 Ambystoma jeffersonianum
0.0.3 Salamandra salamandra
0.0.1 Tylototriton verrucosus
1.0.0 Grammastola cala
1.0.0 Homo sapiens 'Hottie'

i suppose my first guesses of ruthveni and arcifera were off the mark?running out of guesses here.thayeri?
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

Im not sure what you think you are going to find. You will never ever know truly what that snake is...never. Too many people mixing this and that or it very well could be a full blown whatver subspecies but without history you will never know. My guess would be a Ruthvens King or maybe a Variable King but that is really meaningless as its just a Mystery Snake and it alwasy will be.

Keith
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Keith's right, there's no way you can ever be 100% certain without history but I would say from the ventral pattern and head morphology it's not a milksnake most likely a milksnake phase thayeri or cross invloving such....There's lots of ruthveni x thayeri crosses out there due to people trying to "create" a amel thayeri after the ruthveni was hatched
out by Terry....could be one of those....they certainly have
been around long enough to be that old & ugly

Just don't breed it!

Horridus@aol.com

What research have you done to ID this snake other than to post it 4 times on this site? Have you looked at any books? websites? Folks here are right. You will never have a 100% ID. Most people have said they believe it looks like a Ruthven's or milksnake phase Thayeri, maybe a cross between the two. Many people cross milks and mexicana complex kings too create unidentifiable snakes like yours. I know you haven't seen the snake in person, and are out of town, but wait till the next time it sheds. Take the shed skin and count the ventral scales. You may be able to rule some things out, but you won't get a positive ID. In the meantime, do your own homework.

n/p
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Just my opinion and I don't want to get into the whole anti-hybrid thing here, I keep & breed hybrids but I would never breed an animal of unknown origin/species because you create whole new generations of "unknown" animals. And in addition I don't think it's a good idea to produce animals that look like a parent sp/ssp by back-breeding into an original parent snake. By doing that or breeding this particular snake you would just be adding to the confusion & increasing the possibility of geneticlly impure animal being represented as pure sp/ssp. For example, most of us agree that thing looks like a MSP thayeri....so if she were to breed it to another thayeri the offspring would certainly look like thayeri and then most likely be sold/traded/given away as such....but theres no telling if that's a thayeri x ruthveni or thayeri x honduran or one of the back-bred animals (small percentage ruthveni, but look identical to thayeri)people hatched when trying to create the albino thayeri. Then those hatchlings that look all the world pure thayeri would in fact be as much as 25% something else....this kind of thing is one of the main reasons people have a problem with hybridizing, misrepresented animals are never a good thing and with this snake as one of the parents any resulting babies would be at best "Thayeri looking snakes". Not to mention, and this is just my opinion, that snakes appearance is not one that would be nice to see reproduced....in other words.......it's a dog

Horridus

> Just my opinion and I don't want to get into the whole
> anti-hybrid thing here, I keep & breed hybrids but I would never
> breed an animal of unknown origin/species because you create
> whole new generations of "unknown" animals.

As long as they are honest about the origins, I don't have a problem.

I personally do not want to keep any hybrids unless they are a naturally occuring locale hybrid (such as the rather large integrade zone that exists at the northern part of the Zonata range) but the real problem are people who hybrid species/subspecies and then are not honest about it.

Once you get into hybrids, beyong the first generation any percentage indicators are only a history record, and even the first generation are worthless to people (like me) who want "pure" specimens.

I don't care if it is 50% Sonoran 50% Eastern milksnake or 50% Sonoran 50% unknown, I don't want it. But for people who don't mind hybrids, the % indicator is not going to be accurate beyond first generation anyway because you can't dictate which genes get passed on.

The young from that snake may make a nice pet for someone who does not care what the ancestry is. I suspect, btw, that hybrids between species happen in the wild more often than we think - that California Kingsnake may have had a great great grandfather that was a Pacific Gopher Snake, and you just can't see it anymore.

My grandparents are "pure german" yet my cousin has a genetic disease that is specifically asian, and testing showed it comes from my Uncle - who is the offspring of my grandparents, Germans born in Germany.

Nothing is as pure as we think. But I'm rambling, so I apologize.
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

I would say thayeri, or as others said it could be a mix. I remember from your last post with the belly shots that the rings don't go all the way around so that pretty much rules out any triangulum (except Eastern Milk which it obviously is not) and ruthveni as well.
So yeah I would say thayeri.

It is an ecuadorian milksnake (micropholis). I produced that snake 11 years ago and raised it up before it was stolen from my collection by a burglar. It was sold in the classifieds here to another person who then resold it to pay some medical bills for a kidney transplant he needed. The new (4th) owner kept in a cage with a bearded dragon, but when he broke up with his girlfriend, she took it when she moved out. She then turned it over to an adoption agency which is how you got it.

BTW - not one word of this is true, but I figure you are going to keep posting this snake's photo OVER AND OVER again asking until someone can give you some similar sort of story about it. As many people have told you repeatedly, it is an ugly old adult thayeri, or possibly an ugly old ruthveni. That's the best answer you are going to get.

Sorry to be cantankerous, but based on the other replies I see here, I'm not the only person sick of seeing this same post.

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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

you had me going for a while there, i was actually deep into it as thou it were an accurate account of the snake's history...

although your post was a bit forward, and a lil mean, i must agree i'm tired of seeing that snake.

~ZF
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Royal Blue ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

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signature file edited 4/22/06; contact an admin.

YAWN

Kerby...

That was harsh you guys, especially to someone who takes in rescues. Besides he/she(?) did have added information, ie. the length of the snake.

Thayeri-ish still.....agreed, the world may never know.
Todd Hughes

You know, the only reason I reposted was because someone insisted on a picture of the length. I really dont CARE what the snake is, but it's nice to know so I can provide the proper care and explain to people what the snake is and where it comes from.

I take a fair amount of my animals to educational institutions and educate children and adults alike about the herp world, and how some snakes make good pets and some dont. I also try to instill in them if you are going to buy a snake, they need to be able to take care of it. Someone couldn't take care of this snake, and so it came to me third hand.

Furthermore, Right now, I'm living over 500 miles from the nearest city. It's a 10 hour drive to Winnipeg, and the library at the reservation is not well stocked with field guides and other herp-related books. The only herp in northern Manitoba is the wood frog.

Its good to know that you're all so friendly and caring when a person has genuine concerns about what a snake is and how to take care of it. I'm just glad that all web boards don't treat visitors like you. I'm sure if I behaved like you do on my salamander board, I would be banned for life. Next time, I'll just get an animal and guess on how to care for it.

I take in rescues and pay out my hard-earned money to get them healthy and assure they are no longer mistreated. This means no one will be taking the snakes and breeding more unwanted animals into the trade. You should all be absolutely ashamed of yourselves.
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1.1.2 Python regius
0.0.1 Eunectes notaeus
0.0.1 Lampropeltis spp.
5.0.0 Ambystoma mexicanum
1.3.0 Triturus karelinii
1.3.0 Taricha granulosa
0.3.0 Ambystoma jeffersonianum
0.0.3 Salamandra salamandra
0.0.1 Tylototriton verrucosus
1.0.0 Grammastola cala
1.0.0 Homo sapiens 'Hottie'

HUH Sorry but that doesnt fly. Its a Colubrid and for the most part you take care of all Colubrids the same. The web has more than one Colubrid care sheet. I guess the snake has been sitting in a bucket until you ID it ? Give me a break, you simply beat a dead horse. You are never going to positively ID that snake but that doesnt mean you dont care for it like any other Colubrid. I think people here were more than friendly when you posted that snake 3 times before but I guess 4 times is one more time too many. Sorry you are upset about it and I think rescues are great and I applaud your efforts but you dont need an exact ID as long as the snake doesnt have a Hood on its neck or a Rattle on its tail... your all good then

Keith "Shameless" Hillson
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I'm glad that I can take care of all my colubrids the same.
Since garter snakes like to eat fish, I guess I should feed those to a racer. Since kingsnakes should be housed separately, I guess I shouldn't keep ringneck snakes together.

-=-

Even species of the same genus often have different care needs, including kingsnakes, no?

Oh - and with all the different subspecies of milksnake out there, I wouldn't be surprised if it was "pure" something or other, or just a hybrid within triangulum. I don't know, it just wouldn't surprise me if all the species hybrid talk was barking up the wrong tree. Other than jungle corns, hybrids are not *that* common in pet stores, and I'm guessing most abandoned snakes come from your corner pet store, not direct from the breeder.

A hybrid within triangulum subspecies is more likely since a lot of triangulum are simply marketed as "milk snake" with nothing further, I bet a lot of kids who hobby breed them have different subspecies and don't even know it, and trade the young back to the pet store for mice.

But I don't know. Maybe if a triangulum specialist saw it in person, it would be easier to identify.
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

>>I'm glad that I can take care of all my colubrids the same.
Since garter snakes like to eat fish, I guess I should feed those to a racer. Since kingsnakes should be housed separately, I guess I shouldn't keep ringneck snakes together.
Even species of the same genus often have different care needs, including kingsnakes, no?

Care for Colubrids is generally the same but if you want to split hairs I did say "for the most part you take care of all Colubrids the same". Also I might add many Garters can be switched to take rodents. Maybe you should grab a care sheet as well and brush up on your snake keeping as well. Here let me help ya out...

-Keep the colubrid with a warm end and a cool end (72-88 degrees)

-Feed your colubrid 1-2 times a week

-I always recommend housing any colubrid alone regardless of natural habits.

-Clean fresh Water should be available at all times

Hope this helps you

>>Oh - and with all the different subspecies of milksnake out there, I wouldn't be surprised if it was "pure" something or other, or just a hybrid within triangulum. I don't know, it just wouldn't surprise me if all the species hybrid talk was barking up the wrong tree. Other than jungle corns, hybrids are not *that* common in pet stores, and I'm guessing most abandoned snakes come from your corner pet store, not direct from the breeder.

Well yet again your make foolish assumptions... I used to run a pet store and I had guys bringin Hybrids at least a few times a year. Guess what Hybrids that look less than stellar get dumped to wholesalers and who in turn do they sell them to ??? Uh huh Petshops!

A hybrid within triangulum subspecies is more likely since a lot of triangulum are simply marketed as "milk snake" with nothing further, I bet a lot of kids who hobby breed them have different subspecies and don't even know it, and trade the young back to the pet store for mice.

Again its a moot point what we think it may be cause we dont know for sure. What we do know is its a Lampropletis of some sorts, either in whole or part so you can keep it like any other Colubrid

>>But I don't know. Maybe if a triangulum specialist saw it in person, it would be easier to identify.

This site has quite a few on hand specialist and there guess maybe be more educated but it would be no more usefull than anyone eles i.e. You can never know for sure. Maybe a Triangulum Expert/Psychic may be able to get to the bottom of it...ya know one ???

Keith
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I think that while you are busy shaming all of us, you should think about the reasons why people have gotten tired of answering your question.

I think that all of us applaud your efforts to rescue this and other herps, and I personally applaud your efforts to educate others about herps.

You will find on this board and others that people are encouraged to find books (I realize you said you are in the middle of nowhere and don't have access to many books) ,and do Internet research (you obviously have a computer and Internet access). You get a lot more respect when you show that you have done some of your own research. It's not unusual on this board to hear the response "get a book" to someone who asks lots of newbie questions or repeatedly asks the same types of questions. The fact is, a responsible herp owner educates themselves by researching the the needs of the animals they own. The basic care for all kingsnakes and milksnakes is about the same. It doesn't matter what species you have.

I think that while you're shaming all of us you need to think about the time we spent consulting our books and doing our research so we could answer your question to the best of our ability. You could have consulted websites about kingsnakes and milksnakes, looked at photos, descriptions, etc.. It seems you just decided to have us do that for you.

You say "Next time, I'll just get an animal and guess on how to care for it." You shouldn't be taking in animals if you don't want to, or can't put in the effort into finding out how to take care of it. This forum shouldn't be the sole source of your research.

You said in your initial post on this thread "Me again. Are you sick of IDing this snake yet?" Obviously you knew that you may be wearing out your welcome. People were very friendly for three posts and I don't think they have really been that mean during this one. Folks are just saying "yes, we are sick of IDing this snake" and "maybe you need to work on this yourself". There is a huge amount of info online, and you have access to it. People respect those who help themselves.

Peace, Greg

I just wanted to narrow it down to a general type, as now I had new information (that it is 41 inches long), as someone told me that it seemed to be too long to be a thayeri. I understand that it would not be a positive ID, but I was looking for something more definitive than "well, maybe thayeri, sonoran, ruthveni, plains, etc".

So if you were tired of reading my posts, why did you respond AGAIN? No one forced you to reply to my thread. I've never kept colubrids before, despite keeping snakes for years. And yes, I can tell the difference between a rattlesnake and a cobra and a milksnake. In fact, I even asked the first time what species of Lampropeltis it seemed to be.

The snake is NOT sitting in a bucket. The snake actually has a larger cage than any of my other snakes at the moment. The snake also eats more than my other snakes, as it is underweight. It is in my quarantine room at my house.

Despite having sporatic internet availability up here, I don't have the snake. So even though I have browsed what I can, I can't look at the snake, and look at the webpage, and decide if that characteristic fits my snake.

So I thought I would ask you kind people if you had any idea. And when the response came back "Belly shots!", I got those up as quickly as possible. And when the response came back "how big is it?", I got that information back as quickly as possible. I only asked for help. No one forced you to read my threads. So don't jump on my back about something you did voluntarily.
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1.1.2 Python regius
0.0.1 Eunectes notaeus
0.0.1 Lampropeltis spp.
5.0.0 Ambystoma mexicanum
1.3.0 Triturus karelinii
1.3.0 Taricha granulosa
0.3.0 Ambystoma jeffersonianum
0.0.3 Salamandra salamandra
0.0.1 Tylototriton verrucosus
1.0.0 Grammastola cala
1.0.0 Homo sapiens 'Hottie'

Well if you were posting pics in response to requests then I apologize. I must add those people were wasting your time 'cause none of them could ID that snake for sure. Good luck with the Rescue and hopefully we all didnt turn you off this forum too bad.

Keith
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Not all of us. I simply posted my opinion as to what I thought it was, and maybe some of the others were a little harsh but the concensus seems to be that you will not really know what it is with 100% accuracy and it seems you probably have an old thayeri or a cross, which is frowned on by some here. You have been given a lot of possible answers and can state that it IS a Lampropeltine of some kind. I applaud your work but suggest a little thicker hide 'cause you did get more info than you had to start with. Frank Retes, what do you think it is with the info given?
Good luck to you,
Todd Hughes