Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is it ok to feed the frog live mice?

Thanks

some people do it, though the mice are capable of harming your frog, even killing it if the mouse is big enough or the frog doesn't want it and it is left in the tank. yor best options are to buy live and then smack the mouse on a counter or table to knock it out, then feed it or feed it frozen thawed mice. you may have to move the mouse around with forceps or tongs to get the frog interested. either way, don't leave the mouse in if the frog doesn't want it.

I know this is off the topic kinda, but have you ever bought a live mouse and smacked it to knock it out? I would never suggest that to anyone. I had a roomate in college that had a baby python and she asked me to kill her mouse by smacking it on a wall. Needless to say I thought that I would be fine doing that because it is just a little mouse and it wouldn'e make me feel too bad. It made me sick. I couldn't eat all day because I felt so bad about what I'd done. If you are a kinda animal loving person and have had every animal in the book as a pet I would suggest that you buy live frozen. I have saneks and that is all they eat. Just my opinion.
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Vicky Lord
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yes, it is ruthless, but a live mouse tends to be more nutritious than a frozen thawed mouse, i don't know why, butthere have been studies done that prove it. i do feed both frozen thawed and "wacked" mice, that i "wack" myself. i also work with a reptile rescue and rehab group, we have over 40 snakes and a couple of monitors that are feed live "wacked" mice. while most people find this repulsive, if it is better for the animal, then i will do it. i am a tried and true amphibian lover, but when my bullfrogs want tadpoles or froglets, they get them. i try to give the most varied diet possible and one that is close to their wild diet, which sometimes means sacrificing one amphibian or reptile or baby bird or fish or mammal to another amphibian or reptile.

just to make sure i'm clear, it is not wrong or bad to feed frozen thawed, but it may be better to feed "wacked" live mice instead. you can do whatever you want, and one may not be any better than the other, i use both methods, just sometimes i prefer live to frozen.

I only have 2 snakes and I'm getting a pacman so for me I just order 25 mice at a time and I just can't make myself feed a "whacked" mouse again. Or maybe I should say that I would never "whack" one myself again. If it came down to a sick animal that needed something fresh I would have someone smack it for me. Anyway i depends on preference and I'm just weird and too sensitive I guess.
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Vicky Lord
1.0 boyfriends (Jeremy)
1.1 cats (Oscar, Angel)
1.1 dogs (Toto, Jesse)
1.0 San Felipe Rosy Boa (Herman)
1.0 Catavina Rosy Boa (George)

snip "but it may be better to feed "wacked" live mice instead." endnsnip

On what do you base this assumption?

Ed

live mice have a tendency to be more nutritious because they are still being fed a constant diet up until the time they are purchased and fed (if immeadiate) or kept until they are fed to the predator. this means that the mouse has had time to digest it meals and absorb the nutrients from the food, nutrients that the amphibians and reptiles that prey on them would not get by eating the mouse food itself. most pet stores and rodent breeders, in my experience, feed the mice a high protein and calcium diet in an attempt to "gut load" the mouse (same as crickets) to try and make it as nutritious as possible prior to freezing, which generally occurs within 40 minutes or less from the feeding. but many of the food items fed to mice are undigestable by amphibians and most reptiles, since mice eat mainly different types of plants and their friuts or seeds, which contain cellouse in their cell wall, and carnivores don't have celluase, the enzyme that digests cellouse in their bodies (smae as humans), so very little nutrients are collected from the plant matter, unless the mouse already digests it. and frozen mice generally don't have time to fully digest their food once they have reached the size in which will they be frozen at. it has alos been proven that freezing causes the bodies cells to burst as the water in them frezzes, which releases nutrients into the body. upon defrosting in a water bath, the nutrients that were contained in burst cells can be transported from the body and into the water bath which causes they mouse to be less nutritious.

I agree, whatever is better for the pet is worth doing.I keep them for a few days to gutload them before i "whack" my rats. Probably better than being constricted or whatever they do at the mouse freezing place.

Stuzzi

snip "live mice have a tendency to be more nutritious because they are still being fed a constant diet up until the time they are purchased and fed (if immeadiate) or kept until they are fed to the predator."endsnip

On what basis do you make the assumption that the mouse is not fed until immediately before death and freezing?

this means that the mouse has had time to digest it meals and absorb the nutrients from the food,"endsnip

This is a misconception. The whole body nutrition doesn't change significantly due to the absorbed nutrients. The changes in the nutrients are due to the presence/absence of partially digested material in the intestional tract. I suggest reviewing the references in the Nutrition chapter of Mader's book.

snip "nutrients that the amphibians and reptiles that prey on them would not get by eating the mouse food itself."endsnip

While they do not consume the rodent chow directly, they get it second hand via the the contents of the small and large intestine.

snip "pet stores and rodent breeders, in my experience, feed the mice a high protein and calcium diet in an attempt to "gut load" the mouse (same as crickets)"endsnip

Which according the the literature is an inefficient way to gut load crickets (there is a lot of publications showing that calcium loading crickets is really difficult to get to work right without killing the crickets and in any case with the exception of pinheads doesn't get the calciumhosphorus ratio correct. In any case there isn't any need to feed rodents a high calcium diet as thier bones provide sufficient calcium (again check the Nutrition chapter in Mader's book) and rodents are already high in protein.

snip "any of the food items fed to mice are undigestable by amphibians and most reptiles, since mice eat mainly different types of plants and their friuts or seeds, which contain cellouse in their cell wall, and carnivores don't have celluase,"endsnip

Neither do mice so how are they digesting the plant matter?

snip " so very little nutrients are collected from the plant matter, unless the mouse already digests it."endsnip

But mice can't digest cellulose either.

snip "and frozen mice generally don't have time to fully digest their food once they have reached the size in which will they be frozen at."endsnip

Which is a good thing. See above.

snip "it has alos been proven that freezing causes the bodies cells to burst as the water in them frezzes, which releases nutrients into the body. upon defrosting in a water bath, the nutrients that were contained in burst cells can be transported from the body and into the water bath which causes they mouse to be less nutritious."endsnip

While freezing does disrupt cells, it doesn't turn the animal into a sponge, the outer layers of the epidermis do not contain sufficint levels of water to be disrupted on freezing/thawing which is what keeps any potential leachage still inside the food item. If anything it speeds digestion allowing for a greater uptake of nutrients as the animal has to expend less energy in digestion.

Ed