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Hi
What is the smallest North American ratsnake ? I ask because was looking at some of the sites from this forum and was curious since few types I never heard of.
I myself have a Tx rat .

Thanks

Probably the Baird's, which is an excellent snake. Actually the great plains rat may be a tad smaller. If you are wanting to get a small North American Ratsnake, you should also keep in mind that cornsnakes fit into that category. Duffy

Posted by: duffy at Tue Jul 18 16:36:12 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Probably the Baird's, which is an excellent snake. Actually the great plains rat may be a tad smaller. If you are wanting to get a small North American Ratsnake, you should also keep in mind that cornsnakes fit into that category. Duffy

Thanks I read some posts on them earlier. I am going to look at some sites now will look into them to. I have a leucistic TX rat and interested in another N .American but was thinking of only a 30 gallon tank with branches so looking for "smallish" rat.

Jeanin

>>Posted by: duffy at Tue Jul 18 16:36:12 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]
>>
>>Probably the Baird's, which is an excellent snake. Actually the great plains rat may be a tad smaller. If you are wanting to get a small North American Ratsnake, you should also keep in mind that cornsnakes fit into that category. Duffy
>>
>>
>>Thanks I read some posts on them earlier. I am going to look at some sites now will look into them to. I have a leucistic TX rat and interested in another N .American but was thinking of only a 30 gallon tank with branches so looking for "smallish" rat.
>>
>> Jeanin

My adult bairdis are all over 4 ft.
I would say corn or emoryi.

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

Ok, Jimmy, do you have any locality info on those emoryi? Thanks.

Remember this guy? He's getting ready to breed next year...

TC

>>Ok, Jimmy, do you have any locality info on those emoryi? Thanks.
>>
>>Remember this guy? He's getting ready to breed next year...
>>
>>TC
>>
>>

Hey Terry,
Unfortunately I do not have any locality data on the 5 emoryi I picked up. I do know that two of the males and the two females are het albino and the other male is possibly het albino but that is about it.
I had some trouble with the purchase and transaction and am not on speaking terms with the seller.
Too many story changes, delays and half-truths for me.
Had an add for a certain group, I sent money for that group, all of a sudden that group really isn't available but this group is.
just brought out of brumation, get a few meals in them and I will ship on this date.
My only response was "keep me updated on their progress.
He didn't
Oh well now he can't ship on "that" date how about this date.
I said OK
Oops not then either. Sorry I will let you know.
I said..do that, let me know.
I heard nothing... after two weeks I e-mailed him and told him I didn't like the way this was going. After all, we had never met and I didn't know if he truly could be trusted or if I was getting screwed.
"Oh has it really been two weeks since I contacted you? I know I said I would keep you updated but hey you’re not my only customer, you know."
I will ship on this date.
Oops can't ship then either.
after 31 days....I will ship Wednesday, have someone there Thursday.
Up until 10.00 P.M. Wednesday night I try to get in touch with him to verify that he actually did ship....no answer. I get up for work at 5:30 A.M. so I had to get to bed, not to mention that by then it was too late to get things lined up at work so I could take the day or at least half the day off.
Had no choice, I had to go to work...didn't know if they would be shipped or not. He had already said he would ship three times previously and lied in his add about what was available. Was I really supposed to take his word this time?
Thursday I found out he actually did ship. Went to the Fed Ex office and picked up the animals on my lunch break.
Beautiful snakes, great shape. loved that part of the deal. They were worth the money but his attitude, lies and lack of customer courtesy definitely were not.
Not only that, when I get home Thursday I get this rude e-mail stating that I should have been home, I wasn't worth the trouble to deal with, extremely un-professional for not being there to receive the animals and obviously knew nothing about buying and selling snakes.
Remember, I paid on day one.
All I did was check in on a regular basis to check on the status of the order, kept getting unfulfilled promises and when he finally did ship "I" was the irresponsible one because I didn't get verification soon enough to arrange for the day off work.
All I know is, one of the parents was Don S. stock and I'm not sure about the other parent.
sorry to rant but it still buggs me.

the snake pictured
Is that the rootbeer that's het hypo?
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

Jimmy, I don't know what to say. That transaction was so weird it's almost laughable. That's why I rarely make a purchase from someone I don't know.

I have to tell you though, I love the looks of those snakes, and if they are truly het. for albino I think you have got something nice there. Could you give me an approximate age and size of an ave. snake from that group? I'd really like to know how you're doing with that project.

The snake I had pictured was the het for hypo cross from a corn and a Brazos Island rat. It has turned out to be a male.

Unfortunately, I lost the mother of the het in that breeding when she went eggbound after delivering just a couple eggs. That's twice I've had that experience and it really makes me wonder what's going with this egg-binding thing. Could the eggs have been too big? I didn't think so, but I'm not sure. I will try again, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I don't lose anymore females. I probabaly won't use this male, however, because I don't have any appropriate females to breed him with. I'll probably start over with a hypo corn and a Brazos Island rat.

Shoot me an email if you're interested any further. Thanks,

Terry

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Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.

was she a corn or a brazos rat? The reason I ask, is it possible the eggs were the wrong size for her species/subspecies? Kind of like breeding a larger male dog to a smaller female dog. Just an idea.
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phflame
kingsnake.com host

>>was she a corn or a brazos rat? The reason I ask, is it possible the eggs were the wrong size for her species/subspecies? Kind of like breeding a larger male dog to a smaller female dog. Just an idea.
>>-----
>>phflame
>>kingsnake.com host

That's what I was thinking too. She was the corn, which usually has the smaller eggs. They are the same species, however, imho, Pantherophis guttatus guttatus x P. g. meahllmorum...TC

species/subspecies/etc. stuff. And then they start removing species/subspecies/etc. (elaphe vs. pantherosis) from the stuff that I didn't understand BEFORE! How fair is that?

Can you try reversing the corn/rat sexes next time? Or do you have the same subspecies to reverse? Good luck with whatever happens.
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phflame
kingsnake.com host

>>species/subspecies/etc. stuff. And then they start removing species/subspecies/etc. (elaphe vs. pantherosis) from the stuff that I didn't understand BEFORE! How fair is that?
>>
>>Can you try reversing the corn/rat sexes next time? Or do you have the same subspecies to reverse? Good luck with whatever happens.
>>-----
>>phflame
>>kingsnake.com host

Thanks for the comments. What I will do next time is to use my hypo male Miami corn and cross it with my Brazos Island female. That could be as early as next spring. The reason I want to do this is because I'd like to create a cinnamon corn (cross/hybrid), using these subspecies. The B.I. female should be able to handle the largest eggs. This subspecies gets pretty big. That's a good idea you have.

I think the whole thing about the taxonomy/classification is very interesting. I'm kinda into the academic aspects of snakes. I like the change of the genus to Pantherophis because I think there's a big gap in relatedness bt. Eurasian rats and N.A. rats, whereas N.A. rats are closely related to some other N.A. genera. However, I understand those who are still using the Elaphe genus, because when the new taxonomy isn't fully understood or accepted, many folks just stay with the old names until the new names have been used awhile.

Remember when subocs and Baja rats were changed to Bogertophis, and Western green ratsnakes were changed to Senticolis. I wasn't too happy at the time, but these changes are pretty well established now.

Thanks for your interest in the strand....Terry

>>Jimmy, I don't know what to say. That transaction was so weird it's almost laughable. That's why I rarely make a purchase from someone I don't know.

Yeah it was definitely strange.

>>
>>I have to tell you though, I love the looks of those snakes, and if they are truly het. for albino I think you have got something nice there. Could you give me an approximate age and size of an ave. snake from that group? I'd really like to know how you're doing with that project.

Ok I bought them in December. Or should I say I paid for them in December, Finally got them early Feb.

They had just been pulled out of brumation after around three months. I believe they were fed once or twice after hatching and then put into brumation. For what reason I am not sure.
So my best guess is they were born in August or possibly late July '05.
They are definitely beautiful and hardy little guys. That is one thing I can say without hesitation.
They were definitely worth what I paid for them. They were worth the wait, too. Things could have been handled more professionaly by the seller, witout a doubt, but the snakes are great.
A couple of them are getting that nice dark chocolate coloration.
I have just switched them over from fuzzies to hoppers.
Considering size and age, they should be ready to breed in '08.
Seems like a long time from now but when the time gets here, I will be wondering how it got here so quickly.

>>
>>The snake I had pictured was the het for hypo cross from a corn and a Brazos Island rat. It has turned out to be a male.
>>
>>Unfortunately, I lost the mother of the het in that breeding when she went eggbound after delivering just a couple eggs. That's twice I've had that experience and it really makes me wonder what's going with this egg-binding thing. Could the eggs have been too big? I didn't think so, but I'm not sure. I will try again, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I don't lose anymore females. I probabaly won't use this male, however, because I don't have any appropriate females to breed him with. I'll probably start over with a hypo corn and a Brazos Island rat.

Man, that sucks about the egg-binding.
I don't really think it is a size issue but I have absolutely no other explination as to what it may be.
Unfortunately it may just be some bad luck that came your way. Hard to do anything about that. What would you change?

What you really need to do is breed that little het hypo guy to one of my cinnamons.
Be some nice babies.

>>
>>Shoot me an email if you're interested any further. Thanks,
>>
>>Terry
>>
>>-----
>>Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988
>>
>>Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

Jimmy, I'd say my female Emory Rat is about the same age/size of your group of emorys. I've just recently switched mine over from fuzzies to hoppers myself. Sorry you had a bad experience with the seller. Like you said, atleast you got some outstanding animals out of it.

Steve

>>Jimmy, I'd say my female Emory Rat is about the same age/size of your group of emorys. I've just recently switched mine over from fuzzies to hoppers myself. Sorry you had a bad experience with the seller. Like you said, atleast you got some outstanding animals out of it.
>>
>>Steve
>>

That girl is looking good Steve.

this is one of the het albino males

-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

Steve, as I've said before, those rats from se. OK are knockouts. I really like the looks. I think they'll make a nice locality for breeding stock. Do you know what county they're from?

Has anyone mentioned to you the idea that the snakes from your area could be "slowinskii", rather than "emoryi"? I'm working with the idea that Slowinski's corns may have worked their way up into se. OK, or that maybe it's an intergrade with Great Plains rats.

I might explain also that I'm interested in Great Plains rats (emoryi) because they tend to be smaller than thornscrub rats (meahllmorum) and corns (guttatus). Those meahllmorum get too big for my liking as a pet and I'd like to see a cross bt. the subspecies that's a bit more manageable. A friend from Corpus Christi has one big male that's well over 1000 grams already, and still growing. Anyway, I hope you do well with your rats.

Ya know, I've heard that the albino emoryi will only breed true with other albino emoryi. Their albino gene is not compatible with the albino guttatus. I wonder if there is an albino meahllmorum or an albino slowinskii? But I guess that's a whole nuther subject, haha. Later...TC

[You said] >>Ok I bought them in December. Or should I say I paid for them in December, Finally got them early Feb.
>>
>>They had just been pulled out of brumation after around three months. I believe they were fed once or twice after hatching and then put into brumation. For what reason I am not sure.
>>So my best guess is they were born in August or possibly late July '05.
>>They are definitely beautiful and hardy little guys. That is one thing I can say without hesitation.
>>They were definitely worth what I paid for them. They were worth the wait, too. Things could have been handled more professionaly by the seller, witout a doubt, but the snakes are great.
>>A couple of them are getting that nice dark chocolate coloration.
>>I have just switched them over from fuzzies to hoppers.
>>Considering size and age, they should be ready to breed in '08.
>>Seems like a long time from now but when the time gets here, I will be wondering how it got here so quickly.
>>

[Me] Maybe the seller felt he had to brumate them for some reason, and possibly that's the reason you had the long wait.

Well, I hope they do really well for you. With some luck you'll have albinos before long. Let me know when that happens, ok?

[You said] >>Man, that sucks about the egg-binding.
>>I don't really think it is a size issue but I have absolutely no other explination as to what it may be.
>>Unfortunately it may just be some bad luck that came your way. Hard to do anything about that. What would you change?
>>
>>What you really need to do is breed that little het hypo guy to one of my cinnamons.
>>Be some nice babies.
>>

[Me] What I'm thinking is that the eggs may have been too big for the smallish, hypo, female corn I used in the first breeding. I'm not sure, but it seems to me that the Emory's rats have much larger eggs than corns. Of course, I only have one breeding of Emory to Emory to compare for that, plus info I've heard through the hobby. That said, I don't really think the size of the eggs were too great for the hypo corn.

The only other reason I can come up with is that the female wasn't fed enough and ended up too weak to pass all the eggs. It seems to me that corns consume more food in a year than most of my Eurasian rats, which is what I have the most experience with. My new strategy includes trying to get my female corns heavier before and after breeding. I'm still getting used to working with American ratsnakes again.

Jimmy, I wouldn't mind breeding my hypo het, cross corn, to one of your cinnamons. I think the babies would be cool also. If you want to do that, lets start emailing before this Fall.

Thanks for commenting, etc. Terry

eggs, from the pictures that I have seen. The two emory rats that I have seen in person were thicker than the corns, for what it is worth.

Another factor MIGHT be exercise (or lack of it) in the female corn. From what I have read, it can definitely effect eggbinding.

Do you supplement your feedings to breeding females with calcium? I have heard that eggbinding also might be related to a calcium deficiency.

BTW, I think that the cinnamon corn/rats are some of the most beautiful snakes out there.
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phflame
kingsnake.com host

>>one of my '05 cinnamon keepers

-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

Gorgeous. I would love to get one of those, however.... So many snakes, so little time....

Thanks for the pix.
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phflame
kingsnake.com host

>>Gorgeous. I would love to get one of those, however.... So many snakes, so little time....
>>
>>Thanks for the pix.
>>-----

Thought you might like that pic.
I think that one is going to be my most beautiful cinnamon yet.
I will post pictures as she grows.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

>>eggs, from the pictures that I have seen. The two emory rats that I have seen in person were thicker than the corns, for what it is worth.
>>
>>Another factor MIGHT be exercise (or lack of it) in the female corn. From what I have read, it can definitely effect eggbinding.
>>
>>Do you supplement your feedings to breeding females with calcium? I have heard that eggbinding also might be related to a calcium deficiency.
>>

Flame, the eggs from emoryi or meahllmorum can be quite large compared to corns. That's something we have to take into consideration. But I think it mostly depends on how ready the female is. I think, if she's a large female that has been well fed, she should do alright. I don't use immature females, so I think the problem has been that I didn't feed them enough during egg production. Also, I think it would be really difficult for most corn snake females to handle eggs that are nearly twice their normal size. That's why I'm going to use a corn male and emoryi or meahllmorum females in the future.

Thanks...TC

I have a Colorado Emory's rat, male, that is full grown and only 36 inches. I don't know if it's the smallest American ratsnake, but it's gotta be close. There might be a couple others that don't get too long or heavy. I think the Western green rat is kinda on the small side.

TC
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Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.

Posted by: ratsnakehaven at Tue Jul 18 18:43:22 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I have a Colorado Emory's rat, male, that is full grown and only 36 inches. I don't know if it's the smallest American ratsnake, but it's gotta be close. There might be a couple others that don't get too long or heavy. I think the Western green rat is kinda on the small side.

TC
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Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.

Thanks for the info and sites going to look at them now.

Jeanin

Posted by: ratsnakehaven at Tue Jul 18 18:43:22 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I have a Colorado Emory's rat, male, that is full grown and only 36 inches. I don't know if it's the smallest American ratsnake, but it's gotta be close. There might be a couple others that don't get too long or heavy. I think the Western green rat is kinda on the small side.

TC
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Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site

Hey you tricked me those arent sites for info on rats lol. Well the one thats running you have to join and I have nothing to contribute but going to look into the Colorado Emory and the Bairds.

>> Hey you tricked me those arent sites for info on rats lol. Well the one thats running you have to join and I have nothing to contribute but going to look into the Colorado Emory and the Bairds.

Wanna see a photo, just ask...

American Ratsnakes

Dusty
Suboc.com

Thanks .Your collection is amazing. I have never heard of a Japanese ratsnake and an albino at that. My grandfather loved the Fox snake pic as he said when he was young they were all over the place now they are gone. I have never sen one other than pics.
He thinks they are more sensetive to changes in the area than other snakes though hardy snakes. We both like N.american snakes .

thanks

Jeanin

Terry,

I found quite a few emoryi in El Paso, Texas when I lived out there and never saw an adult more than 3 feet. We kept one "big" male for several years after he was wild caught as an adult and he never really got much bigger.

Here's a (stolen) pic of a juvenile from the same area. Carl won't mind, he likes me .

I have a picture of the adult somewhere.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

>>I found quite a few emoryi in El Paso, Texas when I lived out there and never saw an adult more than 3 feet. We kept one "big" male for several years after he was wild caught as an adult and he never really got much bigger.
>>

Chris, that's totally awesome. El Paso is only 6 hrs from Green Valley where I'll be living in 2 yrs. I'll probably make that trip often.

Thanks for the pic and in advance for any others you throw up. Here's another fairly small guttatus, from a cross of a Miami corn and a Keys corn....

>>Chris, that's totally awesome. El Paso is only 6 hrs from Green Valley where I'll be living in 2 yrs. I'll probably make that trip often.
>>

That's funny. When I lived in El Paso and we got bored hunting the area, we would head west 6 hours. Diversity is the spice of life, I guess.

Good luck searching for guttata in far west TX. They aren't common and appear to be mostly found along the river and agricultural lands nearby. In the 4 years I herped the El Paso area, I found 5 guttata. One DOR on a road along the Rio Grande in the middle of the town of Fabens.

A few years later, a student told one of our other TAs that he found these weird snakes with green blotches in his yard. He asked us what they were and we said we didn't know. I wondered if they could be guttata, but prior to my roadkill, no one had reported a guttata in El Paso or Hudspeth county in almost 10 years. Later that summer, the student calls us and says he has one of the "green-blotched" snakes. My friend and I drove over to his house and walked back to the back where he raised chickens. He pointed to a metal pail, and inside was a live guttata! I was amazed. I asked where he found it and he said he always saw them around his chicken coops. We wandered back there and saw three boards next to the coops. I lifted one and my friend lifted the other and bam - two more guttata! (The third board had a splendida). So that is now a total of 4 guttata found in the area in 10 years, but three in 5 minutes. Later that summer, I found a juv AOR in Hudspeth county along the river. I think that's the one in the photo.

My point is don't rush over to El Paso expecting to find guttata. You can find ratsnakes, but they have H patterns on their back, not blotches .
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

Gotcha'. I was thinking of looking for them on my way to hunt for alterna anyway...heheh. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have one from that area, but I'm a very patient person, and it will come with time.

Thanks for the story, Chris. That was great, especially the part about the chicken coop. Also, the part about the river was interesting. It sounds like most areas in the Far West are too dry for G.P.rats. I assumed they were more common than alterna though. Oh, well, we'll just have to wait and see.

PS: I checked the distance from Green Valley to El Paso and it's really only five hrs.

Later...TC