Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I posted a little while back bout adding calcium(see post below if you have no idea as to what I'm talking about). Go some good stuff from that post, but now I'm asking about "dusting" mice before I feed 'em. All my snakes are on fuzzies and are being feed every 6-8 days. Was thinking about giving them the vitamins like once a month or something like that.

ps. Spotted pythons are yearlings, corn snake about 9-10 months, and my Jungle Carpets- she's about 2 month
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1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Rex- "normal" orange fire)
1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Glutany- German Giant Mix)
0.1.0 Okeetee Corn (Okatee)
1.1.0 Spotted Python (Hotdog and Shoelace)
0.1.0 Jungle Carpet (Teprak)
0.2.0 Dwarf Hamsters (Tipsy and Bubblegum)
1.0.0 Rose Hair Tarantula (Goopy)
1.0.0 Boyfriend (Brian)

Do you have a reason to suspect your snakes need the supplement?

Insect eating herptiles often do because crickets are generally extremely poor sources of nutrition compared to a wild diet.

Unless your rodents are raised on dry dogfood, I don't think the same issue exists with rodent eating herptiles.
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

When rodents eat lab block, their body only keeps what it needs at the time, not what snake(s) my need. and all my snakes are still growing and haven't gotten to their full lenghts yet (except for maybe my male spotted).
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1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Rex- "normal" orange fire)
1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Glutany- German Giant Mix)
0.1.0 Okeetee Corn (Okatee)
1.1.0 Spotted Python (Hotdog and Shoelace)
0.1.0 Jungle Carpet (Teprak)
0.2.0 Dwarf Hamsters (Tipsy and Bubblegum)
1.0.0 Rose Hair Tarantula (Goopy)
1.0.0 Boyfriend (Brian)

What do your snakes need that they can't get from the rodents?
Seriously.

I know there is a trend in people to want to pop pills for various things, and sometimes it really is necessary, but do you honestly have a valid reason to know that your snakes need vitamins or nutrients that they are not able to get from the mice they eat?

I know people with gravid females, especially if they want to double clutch, will sometimes use calcium supplements. Perhaps that is justified, I don't know. But I do know that snakes in captivity that never get any vitamin supplements ever seem to do quite well.

Insect eating herptiles, those we know need supplements - and we can explain why (poor nutrition value of CB crickets). I know mice raised on dog food are not recommended. But unless you have a scientific reason for doing it, I wouldn't - because I've not seen anything that indicates they need it.
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Adult nonbreeders do fine in captivity without supplements. And in my opinion, no rodent eating snake needs extra calcium, which can produce problems by throwing off the correct calcium/phosphorus ratio. However, it's a known fact that, in vertebrates, breeder females and growing youngsters need higher grade nutrition than adult nonbreeders.

In the wild, rat snakes go after eggs and baby birds. More than one has been caught in the act of raiding my pigeon cages over the years. Few get this sort of thing in captivity. Does this make a difference?

We see kinked spines and small or missing eyes every so often in captive bred snakes. This sort of thing almost never occurs in wild bred babies. There are lots of theories but nobody really has a handle on the cause(s).

Nutritional deficiencies commonly decrease fertility and increase the number of still births. I had a wild caught bullsnake female that bred in captivity four years in a row. She got fresh killed mice only. I saw a gradual increase in the number of infertile eggs. Coincidence?

I had a baby corn snake that was shedding every two weeks. After she got a vitamin supplement, she dropped back to shedding every 4-5 weeks. Coincidence?

In my opinion, we know less than we think about reptilian nutritional needs.

Paul Hollander

I have encountered several instances of metabolic and physical anomalies among wild specimens, including spinal deformities, unilateral anophthalmia and even dwarfism. I believe bilateral anophthalmia does occur among wild specimens, though I am certain most incurring such rarely make it out of the nest. There is actually some proof that bilateral and unilateral anophthalmia is genetic, as researchers from the Edinburgh genetic unit believe such instances might have their roots in the mutation of a gene. In humans, the gene has been identified as the SOX2 gene.
You are absolutely correct that we have only begun to scratch the surface, in regards to the proper nutritional requirements of captive herpetofauna and it’s encouraging to know that a great deal of work is now taking place in regards to such…

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

> We see kinked spines and small or missing eyes every so often in
> captive bred snakes. This sort of thing almost never occurs in
> wild bred babies. There are lots of theories but nobody really
> has a handle on the cause(s).

I have a suspicion that a lot of spine kinking is a recessive genetic disease that is more likely to be found in captive bred snakes due to the common practice of inbreeding.

I have found a wild baby Cali King with a spine kink - but things like spine kinks and eye problems will fairly quickly select a young snake for elimination in the wild, it doesn't in captivity.
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

> In the wild, rat snakes go after eggs and baby birds. More than
> one has been caught in the act of raiding my pigeon cages over
> the years. Few get this sort of thing in captivity. Does this
> make a difference?

I have no way to test this, but some species of kingsnakes (mountain kings, gray-banded) often have to be "tricked" into taking rodents as young.

There are two reasons I suspect may be responsible for this:

1) Size - the young are small enough that raiding a rodent nest is more likely to result in the death of the snake from momma mouse. When they get bigger, that isn't an issue.

2) Dietary Requirement - perhaps there is a need for consumption of baby lizards that we don't know about, and it really would be better off nutrition wise to let them take baby lizards for their first few meals.

I don't think the first reason can be scientifically tested for.
The second possibly could be tested for, but we would have to know what to look for.

-=-

It just stands to me that there must be a reason why these snakes often reject a food source, darwin would suggest that they wouldn't reject a food source unless it gave them an advantage.
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

I occasionally provide calcium supplementation for females post oviposition, but I prefer to provide a wide variety of prey items such as rabbits, rats, mice, fish, chicken, quail and frogs, working with Drymarchon spp. allows for such, as they will literally devour anything that will fit in their mouths. Keep in mind, when supplementing a diet with vitamins and minerals, hypervitaminosis is hazardous and many fat soluble vitamins have the potential to reach toxic levels, if not administered carefully. Also, D3 is actually a hormone, not a vitamin, and too much can be hazardous to your animal’s health. Straight calcium carbonate, without added D3, is quite safe, though a good diet of vertebrates generally provides sufficient calcium. Should you decide to use a vitamin supplement, read the label and try to use such which uses beta-carotene, rather than vitamin A, which is a fat soluble vitamin and can prove harmful in high dosages, as can vitamins D, E and K…

Best regards,

Jeff

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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Is because ANY frozen food(wether it be for people or animals) loses about 5-35% of the original nutrition. SO, with that little bit of knowledge, that's why i ask about adding some vitamin supp. It's not like I'm going to give 'em a bottle a month or anything like that. Infact when I do give them supplements(weither calcium or vitamin), I only put some on the face (or on half the face) and do that about once a month. They get fed every 6-8 days, so there really isn't any power feeding going on.
As for the sheding thing that someone mentioned... ABOUT how often does a snake shed in the wild?
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1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Rex- "normal" orange fire)
1.0.0 Bearded Dragon (Glutany- German Giant Mix)
0.1.0 Okeetee Corn (Okatee)
1.1.0 Spotted Python (Hotdog and Shoelace)
0.1.0 Jungle Carpet (Teprak)
0.2.0 Dwarf Hamsters (Tipsy and Bubblegum)
1.0.0 Rose Hair Tarantula (Goopy)
1.0.0 Boyfriend (Brian)

There are several factors regarding the frequency of ecdysis in wild snakes, same can be said for captive specimens as well. Age, metabolism, prey availabilty, hydration and health all play a role in growth and ecdysis. Generally speaking, one might expect most mature specimens will complete ecdysis once every six - eight weeks.

best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947