Reptile & Amphibian Forums

when your discussing force feeding baby corns are you using pinkie pump or what? Do you use anything to open the mouth? I hate to be such a dumbie but I've never tried to force a baby and I'm nervous about hurting them. Thanks
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3.4.0 Beardies
1.2.0 Crested Geckos
1.1.1 Box Turtles
0.1.0 Sulcata
1.1.0 Ball Python
2.1.0 corn snake
0.1.0 great plains rat snake
0.1.0 Blue Beauty Snakes
1.0.0 Banana King snake
1.0.0 Desert King snake
2.7.0 Guinea Piggies
3.6.0 Dumbo rats
1.0.0 Blue Front Amazon Parrot
0.1.0 Congo African Grey Parrot
1.1.0 house cats
2.0.0 Maine Coon Cats
2.0.0 Boxers

As you may know force feeding (FF) should be ONLY be used as a absolute last resort after ALL other feeding tricks have failed..

Assuming you have tried all the tricks you may want to first try "assist feeing".. By this i mean putting the head of a small pinky into the snakes mouth & waiting to see if the hatchling takes the rest of the pink on its own.

If this fails try to FF a mouse tail.. It is much easier than trying to FF a whole pinky.

You can do this by cutting off the tail off a pre-killed or thawed mouse (my attempt at humanity), then cut a section of the tail about an inch long, then wet the section you plan to feed so that is slides in more easily.. Then using the section of tail gently pry open the snakes mouth and slip the tail into the snakes mouth..

Hope this helps & GOOD LUCK!!

~ Mike Russo

I am running out of tricks...your advice is greatly appreciated. The tail thing sounds simple enough. I'll try that next. Out of 13 babies I have 7 eating so far. I thought the corns would be easier but my baby balls are eating with no real problems. Go figure.
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3.4.0 Beardies
1.2.0 Crested Geckos
1.1.1 Box Turtles
0.1.0 Sulcata
1.1.0 Ball Python
2.1.0 corn snake
0.1.0 great plains rat snake
0.1.0 Blue Beauty Snakes
1.0.0 Banana King snake
1.0.0 Desert King snake
2.7.0 Guinea Piggies
3.6.0 Dumbo rats
1.0.0 Blue Front Amazon Parrot
0.1.0 Congo African Grey Parrot
1.1.0 house cats
2.0.0 Maine Coon Cats
2.0.0 Boxers

How old are your babies? I'm sure you've tried braining, but have you tried cutting off the head altogether, squeezing a little brain goo out the neck, and placing both head & body in a deli cup with the snake? If not, give that a shot & let me know how many of the 7 go for it. Duffy

they are 5 weeks. Two are looking thin but the others still look ok. I have tried the brain thing but not in two peices. I would stand on one foot and sing if I thought it would help. I will try your advice too. I'll keep ya posted on the results. Thanks.
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3.4.0 Beardies
1.2.0 Crested Geckos
1.1.1 Box Turtles
0.1.0 Sulcata
1.1.0 Ball Python
2.1.0 corn snake
0.1.0 great plains rat snake
0.1.0 Blue Beauty Snakes
1.0.0 Banana King snake
1.0.0 Desert King snake
2.7.0 Guinea Piggies
3.6.0 Dumbo rats
1.0.0 Blue Front Amazon Parrot
0.1.0 Congo African Grey Parrot
1.1.0 house cats
2.0.0 Maine Coon Cats
2.0.0 Boxers

If all else fails, just force feed the head of a newborn pink. Leave a little of the shoulder skin on to grip. The snake will usually open its mouth if you bump it a couple of times to make him angry. Or use a fingernail. Use butter on the pinkie nose if you want to - slides down more easily. Work the pinkie nose down the snake's throat with a rotating motion. Once in the throat, gently massage it about an inch down. It usually goes down easily. Then set the snake down and make him crawl forward - that usually will get him to swallowing all the way.

Good luck!

Do you think force feeding puts them on any kind of dependence? Like once you have force fed them, they will not want to eat on their own. Or do you think it will jump start their appetite? Like once they have food in their bellies, they will realize they need to eat?
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****Misty****

http://www.sneakyserpents.com/

"Yesterday was the deadline for all complaints"

Not counting Hatchlings, this is what I have.........

1.1.2 bearded dragons
9.18.0 corn snakes
1.1.0 jungle corns
1.2.6 California King
1.0.0 Mexican Black king
0.1.0 Blotched (variable) king
0.1.0 Lavender Brooksi king
1.0.0 Sinaloan milk snake
0.1.0 Tri-Hybrid milk snake
0.1.0 rat snake
1.1.0 Arizona mountain king
1.1.0 Congo African Grey Parrots
0.1.0 German Shepherd (hybrid) dog

In my experience FF does not make a dependant snake. Most of mine jump started after the first pinky - maybe one or two needed repeating, but never more than twice.

Regards,

John D.

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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"

>>I had to force feed several snakes for over three months before they started eating on thier own.
Once they did start eating they never looked back.
If you want to keep the snakes and are willing to put in the time and effort, force feeding can and will keep a snake alive for as long as needed.
After exhausting all the tricks I started by force feeding pinkie heads.
As the snakes grew I went from the head to the whole pinkie.
I just used small pinkies.
During this time I would only feed every other week. I was hoping they would be good and hungry each time. Each time I would try another of the "tricks" rotating through anole scented, live, f/t, brained, tuna scented and combos of these.
If they refused to eat I would force feed them.
They finally decided that eating wasn't such a bad idea after all.
I had a couple that finally decided live was the way to go.
They ate live for about 3 or 4 feedings and switched over to f/t easily after that.
A couple finally started on f/t scented with tuna. Each feeding a little less tuna until they just ate them plain.
One just simply decide f/t was good enough.
You just never know what might trigger it.
If you don't have the time or desire to go through what it takes to get them eating there are plenty of people out there willing to take them in and give it a try.
they did not become dependent on force feeding they just took a while to eat on thier own.
In truth they probably just weren't meant to make it.
We definitely have a much larger success rate then mother nature.
In the wild, some hatchlings are simply there as feed for other animals or even more simply as fertilizer...lol

this little butter was one of the force fed snakes.
She also has a couple of kinks.
She is small for her age but that's ok she's just a pet. No plans for breeding a kinked non-feeder.
She will just hang out here and eat mice until she dies.

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

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so Jimmy,
did you label all those that needed force feeding as non eaters when you sold them, or because they started to eat on there own, just sell them regular?
thanks for the info, it helps.

I have begin to wonder if I am doing something wrong. I did not think this many corns would not want to eat. I guess I am just not offering what they want. I will post new stats when I try live. (I posted feeding stats somewhere in this discussion)
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****Misty****

http://www.sneakyserpents.com/

"Yesterday was the deadline for all complaints"

Not counting Hatchlings, this is what I have.........

1.1.2 bearded dragons
9.18.0 corn snakes
1.1.0 jungle corns
1.2.6 California King
1.0.0 Mexican Black king
0.1.0 Blotched (variable) king
0.1.0 Lavender Brooksi king
1.0.0 Sinaloan milk snake
0.1.0 Tri-Hybrid milk snake
0.1.0 rat snake
1.1.0 Arizona mountain king
1.1.0 Congo African Grey Parrots
0.1.0 German Shepherd (hybrid) dog

>>so Jimmy,
>>did you label all those that needed force feeding as non eaters when you sold them, or because they started to eat on there own, just sell them regular?
>>thanks for the info, it helps.
>>
>>I have begin to wonder if I am doing something wrong. I did not think this many corns would not want to eat. I guess I am just not offering what they want. I will post new stats when I try live. (I posted feeding stats somewhere in this discussion)
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>>****Misty****
>>

Of the group I mentioned, I still have all but one and that one was given away as a pet.
These were a few of my own '04 hatchlings and a couple that were sent to me from a friend to see if I could do something with them.
Last season I didn't have as much time so my non feeders went out in a package deal to someone who had the time to work with them. They were sold as non-feeders.
I have a few this season that will probably be sent to friend, in Florida, who is willing to take the time to work with them.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

I am always willing to work with non feeders. One of my favorite snakes is my first non feeder that I bought from a company (that will remain nameless), at the last reptile show. He failed to tell me that the corn was not eating. But I have no problems with trying to get problem feeders to eat. Its kinda a sense of accomplishment when you get them on track and they don't need you anymore!
It just surprised me with this being my first year breeding. I had always heard corns are rarely problem eaters and I had not had a problem with any of my snakes. Then I get babies, and half are being difficult with the whole thing! I really thought I'd have more problems with my kings, But they are doing great.
Thanks for the info.
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****Misty****

http://www.sneakyserpents.com/

"Yesterday was the deadline for all complaints"

Not counting Hatchlings, this is what I have.........

1.1.2 bearded dragons
9.18.0 corn snakes
1.1.0 jungle corns
1.2.6 California King
1.0.0 Mexican Black king
0.1.0 Blotched (variable) king
0.1.0 Lavender Brooksi king
1.0.0 Sinaloan milk snake
0.1.0 Tri-Hybrid milk snake
0.1.0 rat snake
1.1.0 Arizona mountain king
1.1.0 Congo African Grey Parrots
0.1.0 German Shepherd (hybrid) dog

I only force feed those that will not eat what I am willing and able to offer, so they are going to die without intervention. I have found that if you are able to keep them healthy long enough through force feeding, most will start feeding on their own within a month or less. However, I have heard of people force feeding for many months before the babies started on their own (if ever), although those are the extreme examples.

I have sold many non-feeders (cheaply!!) to those (even inexperienced keepers, but with time on their hands) who wanted to put in the time and effort, and they were often quite successful, although not 100% successful, in getting non-feeders to feed after a few force feedings.

I do believe that the feeding response is inherited like other personaltiy components though. Not a simple recessive trait like amel, but a group of traits that make up the personality of an animal or human. So I generally do not keep problem feeders back for future breeders, unless the baby is something really special that is needed in my project. Otherwise, why take a chance? But a "reformed" problem feeder can certainly make a fine pet.

I figured this was true. Because we either get so caught up in $$$ gained/lost or we get sentimental we feel we must go to extreme measures to save every baby. Lack of or poor feeding response would be a death sentence in the wild and the weak individual would serve as food for something else. Nature wastes nothing! Kathy, thanks so much for your excellent advice not to breed corns born with weak feeding response because of the possibility of passing on the trait. The Preacher says AMEN!!!!

Pat GC

I agree with Kathy that we should not breed those with poor feeding responses. I wonder though, if the animals that don't want to feed on mice are waiting for something else?

I had a WC corn juvy for a while that would have nothing to do with mice. However, it ate fence lizards with gusto! I eventually let it go rather than singlehandedly deplete the local lizard population. Its possible that wild neonates may also go for young tree frogs, which are super abundant around these parts.

It could be that individual variation in food preference is a pro-survival trait - what we see as a doomed individual that won't feed on mice might do very well on frogs or lizards. This trait would be selected for by annual variations in the relative abundace of prey.

Interestingly, of the several litters my creamsicles produced, only the first litter needed any force feeding - all the rest went right to it!

Regards,

John D

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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"

I agree that there has to be some survival strategy for the species when there are relatively large numbers (maybe 5% - 10%, depending on bloodlines) that don't want to feed on "normal" food - mice, or at least prefer some other prey.

I theorize that there is likely survival value (for the species, not always the individual) by Mother Nature "programming" some babies to want to feed on something different than a lot of the other babies want. What if some strange conditions happened that caused an extinction of mice, but but a proliferation of frogs? Or tuna fish, lol?? Or maybe some other even stranger food item. If no babies wanted to eat the suddenly common food, the species could die out. However, if some were programmed to eat "weird stuff", then the species might survive new conditions. OTOH, if conditions stay the same, only a few individuals will be sacrificed for the good of all.

Wild snakes may survive fine on lizards and frogs, but I don't want to emphasize that feeding trait in my bloodlines. By selecting Miami phase that have been good pinkie feeders (over many generations), I now find that most babies will start on pinks, unlike in the "old days". Same thing with most bloodreds. I think you could do just the opposite by choosing lizard feeders over many generations for your breeding stock.

Just some things to think about.

Thank you Kathy for all the information to think about. You always have such good information and I think it is great you post here. It is nice to have your years of experience to help us "newbies".
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****Misty****

http://www.sneakyserpents.com/

"Yesterday was the deadline for all complaints"

Not counting Hatchlings, this is what I have.........

1.1.2 bearded dragons
9.18.0 corn snakes
1.1.0 jungle corns
1.2.6 California King
1.0.0 Mexican Black king
0.1.0 Blotched (variable) king
0.1.0 Lavender Brooksi king
1.0.0 Sinaloan milk snake
0.1.0 Tri-Hybrid milk snake
0.1.0 rat snake
1.1.0 Arizona mountain king
1.1.0 Congo African Grey Parrots
0.1.0 German Shepherd (hybrid) dog

Excatly!

We are at what generation with CB&B snakes 10, 15, 25?

Look at any domesticated animal - cow, horse, cat, rooster.
1,000's or even 10,000's of generations of selection for particular traits!

I predict that in 100 years we will have some pretty amazing snakes around!

Viva Gutatta!

John D.
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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"

/
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****Misty****

http://www.sneakyserpents.com/

"Yesterday was the deadline for all complaints"

Not counting Hatchlings, this is what I have.........

1.1.2 bearded dragons
9.18.0 corn snakes
1.1.0 jungle corns
1.2.6 California King
1.0.0 Mexican Black king
0.1.0 Blotched (variable) king
0.1.0 Lavender Brooksi king
1.0.0 Sinaloan milk snake
0.1.0 Tri-Hybrid milk snake
0.1.0 rat snake
1.1.0 Arizona mountain king
1.1.0 Congo African Grey Parrots
0.1.0 German Shepherd (hybrid) dog

As fustrating as it gets, every year there is always a few corns
that hatch out in most collections that require force-feeding. Perhaps the most sucesful trick is a lizard scented and brained
pinky combo to get hem eating thier first meal. If you need to result to FF, the mouse tail works quite well if lubicated with a raw egg. A golf tee works pretty good for opening the little guys mouth as long as the ponited end is rounded off a bit. If possible get a second person help. One to hold the little
guy's mouth open, the other fo genlty slide the mouse tail in.

Just a few tips on what helped for a fellow herper.
Wish you Luck

Gordon C