Reptile & Amphibian Forums

is it possible to raise a female boa to 6' within 18 months without powerfeeding....?

opinions?....thanks

take care all,
mat rivera

that would require heavy amounts of very large prey, which in my book is considered power feeding.

All animals grow at there own rates....I do not power feed...but I have animals within the same litters at all different sizes...I have one at 3.5 feet and one at 6 feet ...they are sisters eating on same schedule and same food...They are only 17 months old...

Hope this helps...Andy
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The snake still isn't ready to breed. Most people recommend 3 years of age before breeding a female. We all know the maturity is more important than the size.

Why is the snake not ready to breed if it has the propper size. Granted I'm not a boa man but mainly breed ball pythons now but have bred many species in the past from boa's to cobras and in my experience the only time when relying on age is when the females are slow growers and they need time to get to the for example 6.5 ft mark. These animals are designed to survive and procreate in the wild. If an animal is able to produce viable follicles than she is ready to breed. A female will not produce babies if her body cannot sustain them 90% of the time. I know of breeders that have bred female retics at 18 months of age and 18 ft even though in my experience all my females were over 4 yrs old and less than 18ft for the first breeding. The one thing I will say is that younger females do tend to need to be bigger before they breed and with egg laying species the risk of becoming egg bound is higher but that's it.
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Josh Hutto
J&K Reptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
1.0 Vanilla Ball Python (Gulf Coast)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
Alot of normal BP females (some not so normal)
2 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrier
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 columbian red-tail boa

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

She will unless you stop her from being with a male. Doesn't matter what someone recomends. Females carry dormant follicles when they are mature adults. At some point their bodies tell them it's time to reproduce, those follicles will grow at that point ready to be fertalized. Every boa is different some may breed at 5ft and some not untill 9ft. Regardless of size when they are ready they are ready.

The point is you can't make a female boa produce unless she is ready.. Whether or not you choose to try your females is up to the individual who owns her. But you could be missing it if you don't.

If she was ready in the wild it wouldn't matter if she was 4ft or 10 she is going to get bred.
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com
www.reptileinsider.com

"The point is you can't make a female boa produce unless she is ready"

Could you explain in more detail about this? Are you completely 100% certain it is impossible to get a female to produce too early?

The "in the wild they would get bred regardless" arguement doesnt say much to me. They also eat live food and bear all sorts of sub-optimum conditions... soley happening naturally certainly doesnt justify it IMO.
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Take Care,

-Ryan Homsey

www.topnotchboas.com

You can put the most eager male on a female and he could court and breed for 6 months, and if she isn't ready you won't get any babies.. Simple as that.

Don't get me wrong I don't think power feeding is good either way, I'd rather have my boas live a long heathy life. Some boas do grow fast though. I have a march 04 female that is 6ft, but I also have a early 03 female thats just about 5ft. They all grow and mature at their own rate. No thats not 18 months, but it's an example of the different growth rates.

What humans think is good isn't always the case. I know several people that produce great litters of 15-16 babies with 5ft females. They don't make them produce, if the female weren't ready they just wouldn't take.
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com
www.reptileinsider.com

I think the "sub optimum conditions" in the wild are what make boas strong and disease resistant. It's the captive animals that are weak. Just look at all of the sick boa posts here. Natural selection has it's fine points.
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com
www.reptileinsider.com

The weak die off, the strong survive. In that sense, you're right. It "makes" them (the population as a whole) stronger.

So should we provide stressful sub-optimum conditions to weed out the weaker individuals?

Not really following your point there.

>>I think the "sub optimum conditions" in the wild are what make boas strong and disease resistant. It's the captive animals that are weak. Just look at all of the sick boa posts here. Natural selection has it's fine points.
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>>Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com
>>www.reptileinsider.com
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Take Care,

-Ryan Homsey

www.topnotchboas.com

No I wouldn't do that...LOL... they probably would all get an RI..

Just saying I think they are a lot more capable than most think. Each individual comes into it's own in it's own time, so if they aren't ready you just won't get any babies.
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com
www.reptileinsider.com

I don't think I agree with this. Here's what I think.

I think that size and age are determining factors for when a boa is ready to breed. In nature there are checks and balances in place. These natural checks and balances would be....

Limited amount of food. This would prevent a boa from growing to a very large size too quickly. That means by the time they do reach an appropriate size they also have age on their side too. I seriously doubt a female boa reproduces/breeds in the wild at 18 months of age.

Natural preditors. OK, there's not a lot of predators when they reach a larger size, but as babies... Only the strongest/smartest survive. Yeah, the ones that are good at hiding would be the smart ones. This insures stronger healthier babies in wild populations, when they do mature and reproduce.

External and interal parasites. In nature they're subject to more parasites. The weaker snakes might not survive to adulthood. Only the strongest will survive and reproduce. Internal parasites "could" hamper their growth, giving them even longer to mature.

Also in the wild I really don't think you'd find the amount of slugs and stillborn that can happen in captivity. I think boas in the wild have better thermoregulation than we can give them in captivity. They also don't have to deal with someone removing the male too soon either.

Now in Captivity.... There are no checks and balances.

Their food supply is unlimited. A boa can be fed many times more than they would ever get in the wild. They don't have to work for their food. Boas in captivity can be "forced" to grow much faster. I'm not saying that people force their boas to grow, but it could happen.

There's no natural preditors in captivity either. Of course, you hear all the time about young boas that died. Mostly from an unknown reason/sickness or environmental problems.

Parasites..... Well, they can get them. It's just that most people try to make sure they don't have them. Parasites are normally not a problem in captive bred animals.

In captivity there are always litters born each year. Some have a high slug count. Others have deformed or stillborn in there. Some litters have no problems at all. I don't think that anyone is 100% sure what causes slugs, deformed, or stillborn. If there was an easy answer,.... Well, if the answer was easy, it just wouldn't happen anymore.

So, comparing wild boas to captive raised/bred boas is like comparing apples and oranges.

Anyway my point is.....

It is possible to get a boa to breeding size by the amount of food she's given. They can attain larger sizes, at a very young age, that were never meant to happen in nature. Obviously it's being done. Since it is possible to get around "mother nature", it's up to breeders to think of what's right for the female and not what's right for their breeding projects. Just because a female boa can attain a large size and be bred at an early age........ Does that mean she should be??

I've read/heard many times that growing them fast and breeding them young, can shorten their life. I've read it enough times to believe it's true. I'll continue to grow my boas more slowly and wait until they're 3 or older to breed them.

np
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0.1 Het Albino
1.0 DH-Sunglow
1.0 TH-Moonglow

same food?...im confused andy...wouldnt they be eating different sized prey because of their individual needs?

If I have a litter they all go in the same rack...they all get the same size rats...If they are on smalls...then that is what they get...I do find myself picking out the larger smalls for the bigger girls but basically that is how I do it...Now as I gave in the example about two sisters being 3.5 and 6 foot in 17 months...at that point they have to go to the next size housing...at that time the size of feed changes .... So now the 6 foot girl would be getting bigger food. Hope this helps, Andy
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What type of feeding schedule do you have for your boas? What's the largest meal you give for each feeding?

I also have had a female grow faster than the rest. Although she wasn't 6 feet in 18 months. It took her almost 2 years to reach 6 feet. She was on the exact same feeding schedule as the rest of them. To this day she is the largest of my boas. She weighs in at 33 pounds. She's 7 years old. The most food she's ever been giving in a single feeding is 2 large rats. Yeah, that's large, not extra large or jumbo. She only eats every 10 days. She only goes longer if she's in shed.

What are your ambient hot spot temps and how often are you feeding?

I've seen people grow boas to the 6ft range within 18 months.............. but they were keeping 91 ambient temps and feeding every 3 days.
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Take Care,

-Ryan Homsey

www.topnotchboas.com

Hey Ryan, I keep the baby room at 83-86 ambient...they always have hot spots too....On really hot days I may even cut off the hot spots completely....I feed every 7 - 10 days, unless in shed...then they may skip.

Ryan as I tried to convey....it is not about feeding....some boas will just grow and some will not. Some 14 year old boys will shoot to 6' tall and be skinny as a rail! Does that meen they are being power fed?

Don't get me wrong....you can induce growth...but then you could have a pin head boa....that is an unhealthy boa...heat and feed can do that but what I am talking about is normal growth patterns....We were talking about 1 boa that bred at 18 months and people were trying to make the guy out to be something bad....I just want everyone to know that you can have 18 month old 6 foot boas that can and will be just fine!

Hope this helps, Andy
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I think it could be possible, but....

That would depend on what someone "might" consider power feeding.

I'm sure everyone has different ways and amounts they feel is a normal feeding. Some will feed a meal that leave little or no lump in their snake. Others will feed the most they feel their snake can handle at each feeding.

Here's an example of how I feed. I don't consider how I feed my boas power feeding.

In the beginning I'll feed my boas 1 pinky rat every 4 days. I'll do this for up to 10 feeding or until their second shed. Once they've had their second shed I'll space their feedings out to every 7 days. I also increase their food size to 1 fuzzy rat(10 day old rats). I continue this size of food until their third shed. Normally they can take larger, but I like to keep their food on the smaller side. Normally they don't need an increase of food size after the third shed, but a few of them might need 2 food items. After the 4th shed I'll increase the size of food again. Normally they can take weaned rats at this time, but I don't go quite that large. I'll give mine 3 week old rats pups. I'll give them 2 at a feeding at this point. I've also changed them to every 10 days. Every time my boas shed I determine if they need their food increased. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. By the time they're 4 feet they're only getting 1 large rat every 10 days. By the time they're 5 feet they're getting the maximum amount of food they'll ever get. That amount is "2 large rats" every 10 days. My boas have never and will never eat any amount larger than that. They just don't need that much food. On average it takes my boas around 3 years to reach 6 feet. They're well muscled and heavy.

Hello,

I think your schedule is pretty good...I don't think I would ever give my 4 foot boas 2 large rats....that just seems way to much for mine...but I don't understand why your boas take 3 years to hit 6 feet long? I have mine on a 7 - 10 day schedule and they all get about the same size meals for their age...and some will grow like weeds...some like they are taking growth hormones...lol...and then there are those that seem to be alot slower growers....they are perfectly healthy they just stay smaller for a longer time before the growth stage kicks in...
But unless you have Central American smaller types...or dwarfs ...I would say that within 2 years to 3 years most boas should be at the 6 foot mark and yes some get there at 18 months....not all at 18 months have the needed breeding weight...they look like long sticks...you know that tall skinny kid in high school...lol...or when in 5th grade you had that one kid that didn't seem like he was ever going to grow...lol....Well some boas bodies will grow and mature faster than others....I could talk about female growth hormones but then I might get booted off this site...lol...
Anyway maturity is not Mentally....like humans we think maturing mentally and emotionally....
With Boas or all animals for that matter ....when the body reaches physical maturity it is ready to do excactly what God created it to do....REPRODUCE!!!

Mamals in the wild have their babies in the spring and most....not all but most will be mature by that same callendar year in the fall READY TO REPRODUCE!

There are exceptions to every rule...but we are talking boas anyway...If you have a female that is 6 foot or bigger at 18 months....and she has at least 10 pounds on her going into your breeding season schedule....then why not let her reproduce?

Take care. Andy Federico

I think it could be possible, but....

That would depend on what someone "might" consider power feeding.

I'm sure everyone has different ways and amounts they feel is a normal feeding. Some will feed a meal that leave little or no lump in their snake. Others will feed the most they feel their snake can handle at each feeding.

Here's an example of how I feed. I don't consider how I feed my boas power feeding.

In the beginning I'll feed my boas 1 pinky rat every 4 days. I'll do this for up to 10 feeding or until their second shed. Once they've had their second shed I'll space their feedings out to every 7 days. I also increase their food size to 1 fuzzy rat(10 day old rats). I continue this size of food until their third shed. Normally they can take larger, but I like to keep their food on the smaller side. Normally they don't need an increase of food size after the third shed, but a few of them might need 2 food items. After the 4th shed I'll increase the size of food again. Normally they can take weaned rats at this time, but I don't go quite that large. I'll give mine 3 week old rats pups. I'll give them 2 at a feeding at this point. I've also changed them to every 10 days. Every time my boas shed I determine if they need their food increased. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. By the time they're 4 feet they're only getting 1 large rat every 10 days. By the time they're 5 feet they're getting the maximum amount of food they'll ever get. That amount is "2 large rats" every 10 days. My boas have never and will never eat any amount larger than that. They just don't need that much food. On average it takes my boas around 3 years to reach 6 feet. They're well muscled and heavy.
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I don't give my 4 foot babies 2 large rats either. I only give them 1 every 10 days. By the time they're 5 foot they're getting 2 large rats every 10 days. My boas don't normally reach 4 feet until they're 1 1/2 to 2. I've only had 1 reach 6 foot by the time it was 2 years old. She's never had more than 2 large rats every 10 days. She's now about 8 feet and 33 pounds. She's still only get 2 large rats at a feeding.

The real point is, powerfeeding!!!!

Yes some boas can and will reach breedable size at 18 months.

A very few of those will get there as long as you don't starve them.

Many more can only get there if you do powerfeed.

Some will not get there by 18 months no matter what you do.

From the posts, several other 18 month old females were not ready and not bred, sounds like this girl was one of those very few that just grow!! I think the issue of power feeding is very volatile. Just because you have a boa that grows fast or large does not mean it was over fed. Probability says if you have enough specimens, you will see some towards the ends of the bell curve for any measurement.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
10.22 BRB
10.15 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

In my opinion anyone who power feeds a boa in order to get it to breeding size in 18 months is more interested in the money they will get from the babies than the well being of the snake and that is called exploitation. I may be wrong, if such a boa were to live a normal healthy life I'm wrong and I'll eat my words. Let me know in 20 years

NP
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True Redtails

20 years? I'll give her 2, but I would really like to see what she looks like today.
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Davey Giltner

Should they be fed with that objective? I think no. While it is possible with some specimens, it is not with others. I have read the argument on this forum that if the female lived in the wild and could breed, it would. It would potentially do a lot of things "if" it were living the wild that may not be good for its health. Fall out of a tree for example. Get eaten or injured by another animal. In caring for them in captivity, we try to avoid stuff like that. Too much food is bad for a snake just like it is bad for any other animal.

Chris
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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing

Female being bred under 2 years of age that lived longer than 5 years. If there are any out there I would be interested to know about it. I always take about 4 years to raise up females. Very early on when I started breeding boas I talked with several big name breeders who tried to breed albinos at 18 months killing them or if they produced they died a year or two later. But what do I know. To each his own really. I personally think ball pythons are getting a huge injustice with the way they are treated now breeding males at 6 months etc. Its crazy! I bet most wont live long either.