Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Anyone else working with these? I have 1.2 that are as black as any other black pines I've seen, although they are considered an intergrade. I will post pics soon.

Thanks,
Michael

In my opinion, there are no true black pines around as they only inhabit a small range that brushes the range of mugitus'. In order for the line to be pure you would have to find a pair lodingi at their northwestern most isolated point of range and only breed them together. then only could you say "I'm selling a pure black pine" make any sence?...JB

You have to do the work and find reputable people . Escambia County (at least the extreme western portion) is considered a zone of intergradation between mugitus and lodingi, also Baldwin and Covington counties in Alabama. The Escambia County animals I've seen have been pure mugitus, the Alabama coutnites mentioned were intergrades.

I've seen pics of these Escambia county pines that were very dark on the anterior with a banded look on the posterior. They looked very much a lodingi/mugitus intergrade to me. These animals belong to a jani customer of mine, who used to post under herpsc. He is a South Carolina state biologist, and I believe that he received his stock from Paul Moler or Kevin Enge. Paul Moler regards the Escambia county pines as an intergrade form. As to having "pure" lodingi..........I guess that any animal of Mississippi lineage would pass the test. The reality of the lodingi scene is that these snakes have been selectively bred for "blackness", which has nothing to do with pines in the wild. Kind of like everyone's idea of what a Brook's kingsnake or Miami phase cornsnake is supposed to look like. As a forty year+ resident of Miami, don't get me started on that subject.

of obtaining locale specific lodingi from Mississippi would be that the animals are protected in that state. The ones I have are jet black on the anterior and have some dark brown banding on the back end. I got these from a university professor who's graduate assistant reported to me that the professor caught the parents himself years ago. I would think this is a reliable source. I have seen siblings from the same clutch come out lighter and much more like a very dark version of mugitus, but the particular ones I have are very black...I hand picked the blackest from each clutch from 2004 and 2005. The state of Florida recognizes the Escambia Pine as an integrade and does not afford it the same protection that it gives to mugitus.

I will post some photos as soon as possible. In the meantime, I would love to see any photos that anyone else has of wild caught (or wild encountered) black pines.

Thank you all for responding.

Michael

Not to produce a "pure" black pine, but instead to produce a unique locale specific animal, then select the most attractive animals from each generation and work toward a darker Escambia County Pine snake.

I agree with you that the range is very small and is very close to the S. Pine and even the N. Pine in Alabama.

From what I hear from the breeder, this locality produces much larger animals than the typical black pines. I have two '04 females who are around 5 feet long already.

Thanks,
Michael