Reptile & Amphibian Forums

like a pure florida king then is it?

I did this breeding of a hypo brooksi to a speckled x everglades.

Some of the babies look exactly like a pure brooksi/floridana........I mean really identical. The head patterns, The side pattern. The way they act. Nothing seems like it has ratsnake in it nor speckled. Just identical pure looking floridana.

ALl this from only one hybrid breeding. Who would have thought.hmmm.

Now for some deep thinkers what does this say about some of the recessive traits out there? So there you have it. A can a worms that I can't help but contain. Discuss.

A pic of the breeding

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Well, certainly no deep thinker here, Rainer.
The fact you end up with snakes that don't look like what they are (or what you think they should look like) is just fuel on the fire for the anti-hybrid folks for sure though. They'd say that after those snakes left your ownership there'd be no way to make sure they would be represented correctly.
If a breeder of "pure" snakes was to plug one into his projects, he'd be doomed, I guess.
All we have is trust, huh?
There's so little difference in a speckled king and a FL king as to be almost negligible (sp?). Ask Kenny Krysko to explain the difference. Not a lot I bet. And N.A. rats are damn near kin to kings as well, wouldn't you say? Yet there's little documentation, if any, of natural hybridization of rats and kings in the wild? Why? They sure breed o.k. in the hobby.
Our understanding of genetics, especially the ones that make up visual differences/likenesses is still growing.
I mean,just how many "shades" of hypo are there????
Maybe you'll discover the answers there in Jawja.
Have fun!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

What I am getting at is the Lavender brooks and Whitesided brooks are derived from hybrid breeding (I am not basing this on the speckled x everglades breeding I did alone). It just proves how little people understand that a recessive trait can be hybridzed and then disguised. I myself was surprised to see the ratsnake dissapear so easliy into the floridana. A lot of people payed big money for these morphs and don't know they are breeding hybrids.

This is what I think:

Whitesdeds Lavender and albinos are derived from hybrids

Peanut Butter, Hypo and axanthics are pure.

I tend to agree.
Like I said before, it seemed odd to me that the w/s trait was everywhere in no time.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Where Does the "whiteside" come frome in the brooksi? It did'nt just occur as a fluke? A book of Numbers for snakes might come in handy. What about the albino? I have so many questions Kevin

What I've heard here, is that the albino came from the California Kingsnake, with the original albino hybrids being crossed back with pure brooksi breeding for the brooksi pattern the borrowed albino gene.

That's just what I've read here.

At this point, they would probably have a very very small percentage of Cal King specific genes in them.
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

btw - with the exception of the Applegate Pyro (which is pure woodini), I've heard the same thing about Pyro morphs (at least for the pyro and woodini subspecies) - most if not all morph traits are borrowed from other species.
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

I agree I am suspicious as well, but I just don't know what to say except I think we should try some expriments next year like you did with the Blaze Goini and Hypo Brooks. Many people are quick to carry on about purity but none want to test breed anything to prove their theories. Something tells me white sided brooks bred to white sided rat snake may yield white sided babies.......and I wonder if white sided rat bred to normal brooks would create babies that looked more, or even exactly like kings? Not much can be said til we try n produce offspring from those pairings....and regardless I still want white sided hypo brooksi...i bet that is gonna look awesome. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

good point Tom, but that would be a little difficult with the lavender trait back to cali kings since there seems to be so many unexplained lavender/hypo looking mutations in cali kings currently... you'd have to get one female of each and breed a lavender brooksi male to them but how many different strains of lavender/hypo cali kings are out there? it'd probably never be determined...

on the other hand just cuz you breed WS king to WS rat and get WS doesn't say they aren't authentic it could just mean that they are allelic

additionally i've seen MANY lavenders that were obviously crosses sold as lavender albino brooksi then i see others that look 100% Fl king just a mutation... so couldn't it be possible that there ARE manufactured lavender mutations and authentic ones?

Really you're stuck either way u go, so in the end we are just left to believe what ever we believe personally i like um all ("brooksi" i mean) and after generation after generation of breeding these back to "pure" stock the origin of the mutation is basically bred out of the genetics so they are somewhat "pure" again, all that's left behind is the recessive gene for amel. lavender, or WS

i'm all for having an accurate account of the history for the animals we keep but after so many years it'll be difficult to get an accurate account...

my input

~Z
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Royal Blue ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

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signature file edited 4/22/06; contact an admin.

I can't get into the Lavs, that is harder than the white side in my opinion. Even if the White Side trait is allelic it may make some lean towards thinking there may have been a cross somewhere down the line. But if you breed a rat snake with a king snake and get babies that look like kings.....that would really make me think it was as easy as 1-2-3 for someone to create the white sided brooksi with out many being suspicious and believeing it just "popped out of...." something. Like I said, I still like them all anyway but it would be cool to know. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Why hasn’t anybody crossed a leucistic texas rat and a Brooks to produce a leucistic “Brooks”? Is it because the rat side disappears? Is there no allele to align with from the Brooks side? Is the King a more dominant form than the rat? (We always thought so anyway)

More like why hasn't it been done YET... and if that were to pop up i think many questions would arise now since the herp community seems to be more alert to mutations and other unique/unsual things popping up from crosses and Hybridizing.

i honestly wouldn't mind seeing a leucistic king

~ZF
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Royal Blue ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

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signature file edited 4/22/06; contact an admin.

..the albino speckled kings were in there too. Before the Floridas and some others. Possibly nigra X holbrooki (natural intergrades??)as well.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

At the bottom of the write up about the history of the white wall speck Terry V wrote [which is on my site] he mentions he was there at the Ft Worth Zoo when the original amel Speck was brought in and the people there agreed it was an integreade between a Speck and a Desert King. Most people just call them Specks.....but they are nowhere near as popular as Brooksi...so people probably just did not care too much. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Sometimes you get the roses, sometimes you get the thorns! Wouldn’t it be cool if they change color as they mature like the everglades? Could be something going on you can’t even tell yet. The purists hate this crap but it really is the key to understanding what is going on to map the avenues towards what you might have been hoping for. You should be very mindful about letting them go into the hobby, for one you could really screw somebody up, and second, some kid will pop out something incredible from them in a couple of years and you will get no credit at all!