Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Too many yahoos out here that have no patience is the reason for the drop in prices. People try to sell their snakes before they hatch, and upon hatching, if they havent sold them by week eight, they're a third of what they asked for. The cost of raising the snakes is not that much and they only become more valueable with age so what's the big hurry? You see these people getting scared and end up selling their collections and getting out of it. Good, I say bye bye, thats one less yahoo in the areana. Rememeber it takes Balls in this biz!$40,000 dollar balls are gone? Maybe a single new codom morph for that price, but consider that we have just scratched the surface of double ressesives. Say I was trying to produce a super black pastel hypo pied. Do you know how long it would take to produce that snake even if you got the 1 in 16 on the first shot. That would take years and lots of time and effort and would be priceless in my book. I think a snake that took about a decade to produce is worth 40k+ easy.

WHO, right now, is willing to pay 40,000 for ONE snake??

I, for one, would sooner spend 40K on a new car, another drumkit for the collection (have 3 kits right now.. ), and a half dozen lower-priced morphs (Mojaves, Cinnamons, Russo Lemons, etc, etc).

If someone is willing to pay $40,000 for one snake in TODAY'S market, please do speak up.

How about a poll? Who is willing to pay 40K for one snake?

I say 'no'.

Anyone else?

BB

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"Have you hugged your drummer today?" --- Me

I say no also ! Pinstipes went from $22000 last year to $3500.Mojaves $7500 to $1000.Who in their right mind wants to take a hit like that on a snake.We as selllers have educated the buyers and the market falls with each year as more high end snakes are produced.Terry

Uh thats the point of the thread, impatient people... those who cant wait drop... none of those snakes had justified price drops. You know how many people still dont own Mojaves? I still dont own a Pin. Theres not as many out there as you think...
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

Sure 40k is reasonable for a snake lol. Do you really think many people would pay that kind of CASH for a snake, lets be real. I just had a litter of kittens they were really cool. I was selling them for 80k each and wasn't really getting much intrest, but at that very moment a boy walked by with a puppy. He said he was selling it for 100k and I offered him a trade for a kitten and he took it!!! What a dumbass I got a 100k puppy for a 80k kitten. Sounds a little silly dosen't it? It sounds like the ball python market to me. I have a poll for you excluding the "Big Boys" how many people have sold 1 bp for 20k or over CASH???

the problem with these scenerios is that us smaller guys don't even get a chance to buy the super high dollar morphs until they are established. and once the morph is established they go through the normal yearly price drop until they stabalize. Everyone wants to complain about them not being able to sell their $10k snake, well maybe because the general public thinks they are only $6k snakes. If a project cost you $7k to buy into and in 3 years you produce several of that morph, what's the problem with selling them at 1/3 the price you bought into it? Every year after that minus the cost of yearly maintenance and food is profit, and we know it doesn't cost much to feed and maintain these animals. a colony of 100 ball pythons takes up the space of maybe 10 burmese pythons so what's the problem with keeping a large group of BP's to make the same amount of money if you truly love working with these animals. if you have a need to complain about the market, then get out and let us take the market to the next level.
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Josh Hutto
J&K Reptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
1.0 Vanilla Ball Python (Gulf Coast)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
Alot of normal BP females (some not so normal)
2 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrier
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 columbian red-tail boa

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

That is exactly what I am saying. I think all to often people see all these crazy prices listed on kingsnake and other sites classifieds and really think people are paying that kind of money for these snakes. Just face it it is not happening. The prices listed are waaaaay inflated. The "cash" price is probably closer to half or less on the highest dollar morphs. Sure some may hit a home run now and again and sucker someone in. Then in a couple years they produce their own (insert bp morph here) and they are worth only a fraction of the original purchase price and they want to cry about it. Still if I buy a codom morph for 20k and breed it the next year to 4 normal females and get 5 eggs from each and the odds are perfect I get 10 morphs if I sell them each for $2500 I am still ahead of the game and this is only year one. Its not to say you cant make money just don't expect to make a million overnight. Its not going to happen and for sure don't count on selling anything for 20k CASH!!!

All the guys telling you are killing market because you dropped your price to make it affordable to a much bigger clientel.But they are selling the same thing lower than you shhhhhhh.
PS just because 1 guy is selling a animal on classified for cheap doesn't set market price for everyone.It just gives someone who wants to start a chance and once he sells some of his own maybe he will come to you for something a little more money.HMMMMMMMM
Mike

Hi,
Personaly i agree with the originator of this thread! I have sold for cash snakes in the 10,000 - 20,000 range. I have seen deals for snakes go as high as $100,000 cash and know of one last year that sold for $65,000. A few years back i know of a lucy going for over $100,000 cash. And the Banana Balls sold for some serious cash! People are to impatient and are creating an unstable market thats why prices drop. I have my best month EVER in June. $20,000 CASH in 1 week!!! So stop complaining the market is fine. People are just not buying from those who do not protect their customers. EX- sell them a snake for $2000 and then the next week since you cant sell the rest drop it to $1500. You are screwing your customers and yourselves! Be patient, take pride in what you do and help keep what you love alive (the market and breeding balls)
Hope this helps
Jon
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

Jon you are a great guy but I call BS!!!! Who sold 1 bp for 100k CASH???. And you mean to tell me you sold 1 bp for 20k plus CASH this year? Sorry but I just dont buy it. Prove it and I'll be the first to eat my words.

Ready to eat?

Tracy, Jack and Kevin bought a Lucy i think 5 yrs ago for over $100,000. (Hopefully they dont mind me posting that) Ralph paid a small fortune for the Matrix Ball, which if i could have afforded i would have purchased (since i was there when he was brought in). I wont post how much Cash Brian has into the Banana Clown, you can ask him, but its a lot! I never stated i sold 1 snake this year for over $20,000, i said i sold $20,000 in 1 week. And i bought 2 SNAKES OVER $10,000 a week ago (remeber my Calicos...)
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

Consider my words eaten, but remember they are all the "Big Boys", and you are living 2-3 years ago, and ALOT has changed since then. I didn't say those days were never here I just said they are gone for now. I have spent that kind of cash on animals recently also but for more than ONE animal. There is still money to be made no one disputed that but I believe the tread is about 40k single animals and even you have to admit those days are over.

All i can say is nothing worth $40,000 came in this year (that i know of), it was a slow year for cool new morphs...
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

I guess time will tell. In a few years one of us will be telling the other "I told ya so" lol. Good Luck,Vinnie

What do you think they are going to be released at? How about Super Phantoms (probably my fav.)???
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

They are sweet and if there is anything I would spend 20k on it would be a Super Phantom, but I still see Phantoms droping fairly fast after their inital release and the only person I see collecting alot of actual CASH (not trades) from them is Ralph, and the other Bigs. Just look at the Lessers. I know for a fact that at Daytona 05 they sold for 10 CASH and look at them now like 5g's or better if you have CASH. For my money I'll wait a couple years and pick up a pair of Phantoms cheap, or TRADE for them and produce my own. Hell bp's breed like rabbits lol. See ya the wifey wants to go food shoping. Go figure food more important than snakes what is she thinking? lol Later V

Its simple with Lessers, they make Blue Eyed whites... And all the other Lucy markers were already down in price, it was bound to happen... Now Phantoms make SUPER PHANTOMS, and WHITE SNAKES. The Super Phantom is what will hold the value... Just like lessers that are produced directly from a Platnum...
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

Jon, I am glad to hear that you are making money, cash money! That is good news. I think that buyers come in several forms:

1-Newbies-have small amounts of cash, and NO snakes for trades, so they pay cash.

2-Me-spent my money when I was a newbie, in all honesty, probably about $20k, and will spend cash money only if it is from a snake deal, no more cash out of my savings account. Looking for trades to upgrade my collection.

3-You-have cash, will spend at will. Any trade will be an afterthought.

produce a clutch of 6 8000$ snakes that will sell much easier? anyone see my point?

I think what we really need is more threads complaining about the market. Each time I read them it is totally different. I have never heard any of these complaints before. I am sure it actually helps the market when new people thinking of getting into ball pythons read negative threads over and over. Lets keep it up. I dream of a time when I can read at least one negative post per day about the market. That will really help me sell my snakes.
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John Vandegrift

Your Right!!! Why don't we just keep lying about the state of the market. That way we can sucker in as many people as possible just to get a quick payout. Then when they are financially strapped due to their uneducated investment they will sell their collection waaaay below market value just to get something back. That will surely help the market.

I would much rather people thinking of investing in bp's know about all the bs that goes on and that these animals posted for crazy $$$ don't really sell for that price cash. That way they can make some smart investments and when they start making some money they will reinvest it into the market and make it stronger rather that further fracture an already fragile market.

I think The Men's Warehouse said it best when they said "an educated consumer is our best customer"

We are not talking about established Morphs, we are talking about NEW Co-Doms, Supers and Double- Triple Recessive combos... Those are the snakes that go for $20,000 or more!
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

Maybe some thing brand new, but I would think that is the exception rather than the rule, and I would still very highly doubt someone would pay 40k CASH for it unless truly unique.

Isnt that what this thread is about... No one is saying Cinnys should be $20,000 just that the days of $20,000 snakes are FAR FROM GONE!!!!!!!! Your telling me a Banana Ball or Matrix Ball or Paragon or any insane new morph will not be worth $40,000 when they are realeased? If when they are released, and i could afford to, i would pay $20- 40,000 grand for any of them!
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

LOL because I wouldn't not is this market. I guess you have to gamble big to win big. I suppose if the cash is dispensable to you its not a big deal, but that would be my life on one animal.. kinda scary. Good luck Vinnie

lol, Cash is far from despensible here, this is what i do and i have faith in it. Plus theres just not enough people out there with Calicos to screw it up for me =)
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

np

You are completely correct! All that is really "wrong" with the market is all the negative threads!
Jon
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

...
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

Why is it that the only people complaining about the market are the ones that can't afford to buy anything in the market???

It's kind of like people making minimum wage complaining that the price of the brand new corvettes are too high....lol.

Corey

Minimum wage....Corvette, now that is funny!

I actually think the people who are complaining are the ones buying. I will probably get a Pin this year, because I could not afford $20k last year, but can afford $3K.

How many people do you know that can afford to spend 20k on a single snake CASH. with the economy the way it is. I would say it is probably less than 5% of the whole hobby. Please correct me if I am wrong. It is like putting a Bentley dealership in the getto. How long do you think it would last?

hmmmm a Bentley dealership in the ghetto, that's a good idea. Do you know how many drug dealers would be buying them? This market is sooooo funny. when will these people realize that even if the market had a major readjustment and all the $3000 morphs drop down to $500 you would still make your money back in 2-3 clutches. You know the funny thing is that nobody in the retic or boa forums talk or complain about the market is crashing and both of those animals have clutches or litters that number significantly higher than balls which you would think that those prices would drop sooooo much faster than balls. People if you can't afford the snake, save up money. If you can't save money, get a better job and save up the money for it. All the complaining and negative comments only hurt you once you are able to produce these animals.
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Josh Hutto
J&K Reptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
1.0 Vanilla Ball Python (Gulf Coast)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
Alot of normal BP females (some not so normal)
2 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrier
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 columbian red-tail boa

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Now, that has to be one of the best reply's I have seen yet!!
I totally agree with Corey...
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http://www.jasballpythons.com./

Got that right John!
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

You should see the male axanthic I just picked up Rick, It is Smokin!!
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http://www.jasballpythons.com./

But does it scream?
Take some pictures!
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

Not as much as JC does but yea he is a Screamer!!
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http://www.jasballpythons.com./

One question, How much money do you have in the market that you are complaining about?
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John Vandegrift

I am not complaining about the market.I am just saying most people don"t have thousands to invest and most high end deals are trades.My opinion is there is 3 buyers the big guys The small breeders who take a certain amount to reinvest and the average guy.To think 10,000 is going to come easy from a snake is not going to happen that often.If you took what I said as complaining you miss understood.I do alright I do what i love working with reptiles and never complain.
Mike

I think you are far off on who buys the high dollar stuff. I am very very far from a big breeder and I spent close to 10k on a pair of het Lavenders. I have no worries at all the I will make every bit of that investment back by 2008, and profit from then on. Overall I have about 20k in ball pythons. Of course I am not going to be able to sell my babies for what I paid. You have to factor that in when you make your purchase. I think people need to choose their projects more wisely and realize when you buy a codom animal the prices will plummet by the time you are producing them. That is why I only work with reccesives. When was the last time you saw the price of any recessive crash?
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John Vandegrift

No dout you will make your money back even if you buy codom.You missed my point.I just said 20,000 for anything is alot of money and more people can afford a 1000.00 than 20.Oh congrats on the alb.hets they are spectactular.I hope you do well with them and enjoy the hobby.I can't wait to see them.
mike

It is the crazzy high prices that have kept me from breading Ball's and if I did I wouldn't care what I sold them for
I would do it for the love of what I was doing and the satisfaction that I was abel to do something new that nobody els
had been able to do thanks for your time
ps GOOD LUCK IN ALL YOU DO!

I think that many people drop thier prices too fast. But then again, who every heard of so many Co-dom morphs. So much new stuff is co-dom in four or five years the small guy can afford it. We are in uncharted teritory with the ball. I think it just makes balls more popular. Everybody can get in the game. There will still be 20-40,000$ sales of new one of a kind morphs.
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Jesse

"I think a snake that took about a decade to produce is worth 40k easy."

Would you feel the same if it were a water snake or a garter snake?
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Matt Lerer
'Ghi Reptiles'
ghireptiles.com

Hey Matt!

If it took that long to produce any water snake or garter snake that long you doing something REALLY wrong lol =) Heard you went out Snake Head fishing. It is the best!!!
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

Wow should have proof read lol. It should read - If it took you that long to produce a water or garter snake you are doing something really wrong... Got it that time
=)
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

The only people paying $40K for a snake are the top 10 breeders buying from Africa, and the $40K might be down to $20k now. This is just a guess.

The Crystal Ball might be the only snake, because it is so rare and only one person has it, that tops out anywhere near $40K, and it might go for OVER $40K.

Trades, I think most high end Balls are trades or cash and trade. With the prices and market in such flux, who would really spend $20K + right now on a single snake? Pins were $20K at the Anahiem show last year, what are they now? I think the pricing has just adjusted....what used to top out at $40K are now $10K, what used to be $10K are now $5K, etc. Snake money is like Monopoly money. The prices are MADE UP. Pricing is a guide, based on what someone paid for their snakes, what they have into a certain project, and what others are selling the same morph for. Anyone who has an ad that says price FIRM, will probably hold onto it for a long time, same with the "no trades" guy. Nobody wants to be the guy to be the one who dropped the price on a certain morph to cause a price adjustment. BUT, someone does it every year. How did Mojaves go from $10, to $7K, to $1500 in about a year? I totally understand the YB drop, too many CH ones being found for $5 in 100 lots. But the Mojave is an amazing snake, nice to look at and makes killer combos, AND a Lucy. I personally think the market has gone for most, for MOST, from a cash business to a cash and trade hobby. Will there be an upswing again, who knows. For me, it is all about seeing the heads poke out of the egg, and seeing a head that is not brown

Finally, the guys who are selling normals for $2K and up, are going to have a hard time selling them unless they are proven. If you have a cool looking normal, breed it and see if it reproduces what is cool about it. Trying to sell it now would be a waste of time. If I tried to sell my adult female EmberBall, I might have gotten $1K, because she was a nice female, hypo looking. Glad I kept her and bred her....

So, why should anyone get INTO Balls now? Tons of reasons, you will pay one tenth of the original price for many cool morphs, there are new morphs coming in every year, you can still sell ghosts, albinos, and pastels for cash, you might hit the jackpot on a CH animal, you might find a million dollar pet store find, you can make a Lucy before me, and I have had Balls for (EVER) 5 years....

I have a question for you since you seem to post so much. How many snake have you produced? And how many have you sold? You always seem to be the first to jump on market threads... How long have you been doing this? What morphs do you own and how invested are you?
Jon
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

I am always the first to jump on the market threads?? How many people posted here before me? But, I am the FIRST...hmmm. My posts are realistic from MY experience, and I am truthfull, not negative.

What I have spent is none of your business, but I will say I have Pastels, Ghosts, Albinos, Yellow Bellies, Pastel Yellow Belly, Mojave cross's,some nice adult het pairs-Pieds, Axanthics, Green Ghosts, and my EmberBall and Mojave cross projects. I also have some nice dinking around projects, and probably forgot to put a few snakes on here. I have a small collection, basically so I can manage it myself. I have a great day job, work alot, but spend about an hour a day on my snakes, minimum. Weekends, more.
The last snake I "sold" was Friday, shipped Delta and he arrived in perfect condition in Conn. It was a Mojave Poss Het Hypo, yearling male about 700 grams. I have sold Poss het Pied males, Pastel adult males, Mojave babies, Albinos, Het Caramel male-was not a great eater here, thought a change of scenery would do him well, and it did, he did breed this year for the new owner, AND produced Caramels, sold Poss Het Axanthic male, OK, OK, yo ugot me, I traded him for rats, I am soooooooo ashamed,and will be shipping three 06 male Pastels to a very well known guy on Saturday.
My first two years of breeding, got some nice eggs, from some amazing females, and I probably added too much water, and the eggs molded. VERY expensive lesson learned. Last year I produced the EmberBalls, and this year I have 5 clutches incubating now, with one Pastel x normal clutch already hatched...one male normal and three male Pastels. The normal was traded to LLL for some rats.

Dave

Crystal, super phantom, super phatom yellow belly, Lavender albino pied, albino stripe, and I am sure there are more that I have missed. You could probably not even get most of the above snakes for 40k. That is just a few that I know of. I am sure there are more that are still hidden away. If you drop that number to 20k the list would be very long. I think getting 20k or even 10k for a snake shows that the market might just be better than a lot of people think. Of course 40k snakes are rare(thats why they are 40k), but they are far from gone.
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John Vandegrift

Simple: there are people who can/do spend $40K on a snake.
It's like asking why spend 150K on a Hummer when you can by a Honda CVR for $20K?

Myself I would be very hesitant to spend even a few thousand dollars on a pair of hets or albino ball python. Not because I don't want them or don't like albino balls, it's simply because, with my current income, I can't afford it. However, if I win the lottery, get a better paying job, discover gold in my backyard etc....I would get the 40K morph of my choice. Not necessarly to breed and sell it to make a profit but because I like it, love pythons etc. Selling babies and making money is just a pleasant offshot of owning balls.

I once asked a breeder if he regularly sells all his morphs (pieds, hets, albinos,etc) and he repled he does eventually. Do I see him drop his prices in half? No, they may be lowered 10-20% as a one time 'sale' but he remains pretty consistant in his prices per year.
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PHLdyPayne

Exactly,
It would be like going into a Viper dealer and telling them you can buy other dodges for under $20,000 why cant i have the Viper for that much???? They would laugh thier... well you get the point. So next time you are in a dealership i want you to try this one... Tell them its not worth x amount and see where that gets you =)
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

Not a valid anology. I can't go buy a pair of Neons wholesale from a guy that needs cash cheap and breed them and make a Viper. However I can buy a 1 year old Viper for half the price of a new one I guess that might work.

Would I ever buy a $40,000 ball - not on your life - unless I suddenly inherited Bill Gates' money - for someone in my situation - spending that kind of money on a snake is ridiculous. But the key is time - how much time do you have - I have all the time in the world - I can wait the 3-5 years until that $40K snake is $5,000 to own one. I am not in any hurry to own or produce the newest thing, or have the biggest collection of ball pythons.

However for a big breeder - there is a certain value aside from just monetary that goes along with spending that extra money on a snake - being the first to have a new morph and introduce it to the community, being the one that gets to work exclusively with that particular morph or line - being the first to "see what it can do" is what their buisness is about - if you become stagnant in this industry you can very well become yesterdays news. But once that morph hits the market - the value will go down - there is only one way for it to hold it's value and that is to limit it's distribution and that is something many in this industry have a hard time doing.

Yes as long as there is still a ball market there will always be that $40K snake - but it will be the new snake, the new combo - not last years masterpeice that will be mass produced this year.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 Lizards of unknown origin

np

I agree, people are too impatient and want to move their animals fast because they produced 20 babies that they don't have room to house or resources to care for. Personally I would keep them back a year or so rather than sell lower than I want to, and next year if it is a male I get more cause it is breeding size and females I basically never let go of.
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Nita Hamilton
--------------
Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com

no doubt in the world, that if something new and really exciting came into the country-someone absolutely would pay $40,000 for it--would have to be completely new and drasticly different, but it would sell-people would fight for it-something really nice could probably bring alot more than 40k-beleive it or not-the ball market is still in its infancy-Ben Siegel

hopefully when you call fellow hobbyist Yahoos you start with the man or woman in the mirror!
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The Crawl Space

and think, quit chasing the market and just follow it. Negative post, impatience and the "I have to make money right now" mentality is what is driving it down. It’s been said before; it takes time and effort to succeed.
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Greg Power
B.O.A. Inc
boainc@gmail.com

I think if anyone is driving the market down, it is the people that buy a male Spider, Mojave, Pastel, etc., and breed it to 20 normals. Sure, you are going to make a boatload of Spiders, Mojaves, or Pastels, but wouldn't it make a bit more sense to buy a Pastel female or three, instead of 20 normals, and breed your Spider male to the three Pastel females and a couple of normal females, than to become a Spider, Mojave, or Pastel factory?

I think if you are buying just about any morph now, if you are just getting into Balls now, you will do fine. The prices are low, you know what they say about the stock market, buy low, sell high. If you purchased your animals a year or two ago, and are worried about making your money back, you will, it just might take longer than you thought. Also, like the stock market, you only lose money IF YOU SELL, meaning sell your original animal. If you paid $10K for a Cinn male, and are bummin, do not worry, Cinns are still popular, and you will make your money in due time, do not bail on your Cinn/Mojave/Pin/etc.

My only point, has ALWAYS been, do not get into Balls if you do not love the snake, and are looking for a quick buck. Do not mortgage your house to buy Balls, do not overextend your CC's to buy Balls. If you save up some money, great, if you get an inhieratence, NICE, if you want to use some tax money, GO FOR IT! Just do not spend money you do not have expecting to make a fortune. You might just make a fortune, but do not go into debt to try and find out. Start out with a nice trio of Het Hypo females, and buy a male Hypo next year, not much money out of pocket, and you should make some money on that group.

np

The only problem with your logic is that if people didn't mortgage their houses and run up their CC there would be NO BALL PYTHON market as it is. It used to be a "Herp" market. Now people seem to think that because of some fancy "pyramid scheme marketing" that this is something other than making "pet snakes", yes people that is what you are doing.....The BIZ you are in is pet snakes. How many people really made good liveable (mortgage, food, car payment and family) money prior to the ball python irrational frenzy. Lets just say there are more professional basket ball players. The hobby is and will always be a side project for 99.9% of us. Stop whining about how people sell THEIR snakes. That is the way the world works. So Joe blow doesn't have four employees and a 2 million dollar martgage on a huge facility. You are the ones who sold him the cinny for $15K that was going to make him a millionaire. Now when he can't sell them for $5K you are upset because he had to sell for $2.5K. If the market is in fact so great. His sale for $2.5K should be nothing more than a great buy for someone, it should even register for you.

Chris

I for one will never get upset at someone selling a snake at what they think their time and effort is worth. Ok so if the price of co-doms drop by half each year and it takes you 2 years to produce from yours, all you have to do is sell 4 to break even. The problem is when people come on here and bash the market because they didn't think about the simple laws of supply and demand before they went head over heals in debt and now they must complain because they only doubled their investment in 2-3 years. There is no other investment oppertunity in this country that has that kind of turn-over except drugs and other illegal activities.

you also state this is a pyramid scheme, there are a few problems with this idea. Granted when the snakes are worth over $10k it is a pyramid but once there are enough snakes in the public and the price goes through it's first major adjustment there are just soooooo many people that are buyers or potential buyers there is no way it can be a pyramid any longer. The pyramid would look more like a major spike on a bell curve and once the price on these morphs get's to the level of high end "PET" you are looking at almost half the US population as potential buyers, you just have to market the snakes and sell them, they don't sell themselves any longer. Here's a simple question, how many people that keep snakes wouldn't save up for a pied if they were only $750? with the limited production of each individual female, it would be hard to keep up with the demand for them. And that's just the single homozygous animal, think of the crosses being made, you are looking at years and years before they can be made in significant numbers. Like I've said many times before, if someone thinks the market is going to crash and there is no money to be made, sell out and let the rest of us continue to do what we love without having to respond to ridiculous posts like this.
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Josh Hutto
J&K Reptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
1.0 Vanilla Ball Python (Gulf Coast)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
Alot of normal BP females (some not so normal)
2 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrier
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 columbian red-tail boa

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Personally - I never want to see a $750 pied. I don't want to see this industry hitting the "pet market" - and if you are relying on the "pet market" to sustain the industry I think you are in for a very rude awakening.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 Lizards of unknown origin

i agree there are many morphs that couldn't make it in a pet market but there are some that would be in such high demand that it would be almost impossible to make enough. I think that there will be some morphs that do make it to the pet trade in the next few years, pastel's being the first as you can buy them cheaper on here than you can albino burms at pet stores, now how ridiculous is that.
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Josh Hutto
J&K Reptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
1.0 Vanilla Ball Python (Gulf Coast)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
Alot of normal BP females (some not so normal)
2 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrier
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 columbian red-tail boa

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

........how much time Ive waisted reading this thread.

I just have to state for the record that i would buy a 20k snake. I have faith in this market, i have spent enough money to get me where we are today and i cant make one complaint on what i have spent. If you are going to buy into ball pythons and you want to make money at it ( iam not saying to buy into them for the turn around)but if you are hoping to make something, it is better to buy into them sooner then later "you need to spend money to make money" it is true in any buisness. Yes it may be half price next year but if you were to buy the animal now it would also be a year closer to breeding if female and possibly breedable if it were a male. Just my thoughts...

I dont want people to take this post the wrong way, i love my snakes and i am not saying i own them to make a buck, but most people who would be spending 40k on a new morph would be buying it as an investment animal not a pet.. I can still see animals being priced at prices of 25k and higher, i think alot will notice new morphs priced high at Daytona this year... I know of a few that will be there ... shhhhhh... It should be a good show

Kim

I am very new to this wonderful world of the Ball Python. I currently have (1) male Albino, and (5) Normal females. I spent 2K on the Albino a year ago, and I see prices as low as 1,500 now. Does that worry me?

No, I'm hoping to breed this year (my first attempt). I will get all Hets, I will keep all the females and breed them back to dad in a couple years. (I know, I know, he will be overworked - I won't push him too hard)

So, if I'm able to produce some Albinos in 3 years or so, will I be able to sell them for 2K each? No of course not, but if the price has dropped to even 500.00 each, I would only have to sell (4) to make back my initial investment. (I know I'm not accounting for the price of the normals, food, time and such).

I hope I have a lot more than (4) available for sale at that time. Still being a newbie at this point, I will have a much more difficult time selling my babies then the big guys will. If my price is not lower then the biggies, I don't see myself selling anything!

It may upset some of you out there, but I look at it this way: The lower the price, the more affordable it becomes. The more affordable it becomes, the more potential buyers there are, and then, maybe I can sell my snakes!

As many of you have stated, we really shouldn't be in this for the big bucks, we should do this for the love of the snakes!

Just my 3 cents!
Ken

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1.0 Albino Ball Python (Apu)
0.5 Normal Ball Pythons (Norma, Nova, Nala, Nimeesha, Nyoka)
1.1 Argentine B/W Tegus (Draco and Drucilla)
0.1 Columbian B/W Tegu (Diablo)
1.0 Black Throat Monitor (Razor)
1.0 Desert Tortoise (Tubbs) from Tortoise Rescue
1.0 Boxer (Shadow)
0.1 Feline (CK)
1.0 Memory of my Redtail Boa (Mo) which passed away after 28 years

www.ocballs.net
kvandoren@ocballs.net

Finally finished reading all the posts that so many people put up.Wow i'm tired.If people dont get scared and drop their prices this market will be fine.It takes time for some of us to come up with 2k or more to by that one "got to have" snake.If I could afford to pay 10k for a snake that I really wanted I sure as hell would.If your wondering who I am I work for Jon over at NWE.I have my little snake business that I just started not to long ago way over yonder where nobody notices me.I think your right 40k for BP is kind of steep for most of us who breed balls on a small scale.But if someone has the cash on hand to spend I think they would.Price crashes make no sense to me.Why do you people do it?Take for instance the het red market.What used to be a high end market is now a low to middle end market.I watched from the side lines as my bread and butter ball went to the toilet.I wont mention those who caused it though they know who they are and i'm sure everybody else knows who they are as well.This market will forever be up and down good and bad all we got to do is keep our prices the same.Dont drop them to under cut the next guy with the same stuff.If you have to give someone a deal to help them out then do it behind closed doors.Because just like Jon said not everybody has a mojave,or a spider.New comers are always around and they will want some of they same stuff that every body else has.If we expect this market to last a while we need to take care of it.Just like our enviroment keep it they way you found it.GO CALICOS!!!!