Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Alright time for a little rant. Lately I've been losing my interest in the whole ball python morph thing. Now that is not to say I dont think morphs are not beautiful or interesting or that I dont like ball pythons ( I have two). But I dont like what is happening in the forums or the overall mindset of many breeders of high end bp's. My two pythons are set up in large visually pleasing cages and I wouldnt' have it any other way. I enjoy watching my pythons cruise their cages at night and just be snakes.
When I go onto the superspeeding higway that is the ball python forum (all bp forums not just kingsnake) I enjoy post were keepers talk experiances they've had or posting pics of the cages, or talking about feeding strategies. But 90% of all post these days are people with new morphs or my favorite, when people show their normals and ask if its a morph just so they can get a step up in the lucrative business that is ball python breeding. It just seems that the joy of keeping these snakes is overshadowed by the business of breeding them. Look at other snake forums talking about keeping snakes or other cool stuff then compare it to the bp forums.
With other snakes, I'll use the reticulated python for example, designer morphs such as the tiger can be had at a price that is within the range of most keepers. but bp morphs are soo rediculosly priced that one has to breed them just to pay for the first ones. Its a self sustianing industry breeders sell to breeders sell to breeders sell to breeders but morphs never trickles down to the general public or the casual herp keeper. Now I do believe that this craze will pass over in time but it scares me that some morphs are holding their price
season after season. This is by no means a attack on the industry or breeders I just am stating my feeling and would like to now if anybody else feels the same way. Plese nobody take offense to this, I have much respect for all the breeders that produce quality animals. Im by no means an expert at breeding or the business behind it, Im just a fifteen year old kid that loves keeping bp's.

Peace out.

I hear ya.

I personally prefer snakes that visually represent what they typically look like in the wild, for me that is part of the fun of having them.

I do like some of the honduran milk snake morphs I have seen, and I probably will at some point get some - but the majority of my herps are going to be representative of what mother nature bred and selected.

I don't have anything against morphs, but I think it is being over done - and I think a lot of it is driven by marketing. Breeders need to differentiate themselves in order to get an edge up on the competition, so breeders try to focus on morph and market morphs as the must have snake - creating a feeling of inadequacy (sp??) amongst people who don't have morphs.

Also - a lot of inbreeding is done to get morph lines producing as quickly as possible, and I can't help but think that this results in offspring with genetic issues, which is always more likely when closely related animals reproduce - even though it is still rare.

There is a morph forum, perhaps the people who want to talk about their morph ball pythons should post there.
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Ya I've found a couple of sites that have a better bp forum ,in terms of topics discussed not better people, but the main forum is flooded with morph talk. When I hear stuff like " I will breed the offspring back to the parent next season" I think " man it might not show up now but that inbreeding is gonna bite the breeders in the butt someday". You can probably figure out why I didnt post this in the bp forum, as its loaded with pro-breeders. They would probably rip me a new one.

You hit the nail on the head with that post. You post a pic of a normal ball python over on that board would get about as much of a response as posting a hampster. Correction. The hampster would get more attention.
It is a shame, becasue the normal ball python is an absolutely beautiful animal. Great post.

Steve

Well alot of people post pictures of their normals, but its accompanied by " what morph is this" or " I proved this dominent last season" lol.

-Alec

you are right that breeders just sell to breeders who sell to breeders, and the average keeper still cant afford morphs. its actually a very lucrative free-market system for breeders.

the prices never fall below a certain level, because there are always people looking into and buying "investment morphs" and tryign to make money. the thing is, THEY DO, because theres even more people looking for "investment morhps" next season. its like a natural pyramid scheme! i think its really cool for people in the game, but i do agree its unfortunate that the average hobbyist cant get there hands on any.

i couldnt get my mind around the BP market for a while. its continual growth and bottom-level breeders keep prices high.

While I prefer nice "textbook" specimens over color morphs, being an academic herpetologist / herpetoculturist, I do enjoy admiring color morphs through the glass and I have found the market and interest in such has spurred an increase of interest within the realm of genetics and mathematics among young aspiring herpetoculturist, so there are benefits to such "extreme" pricing, as the possibility of financial gain is always going to elicit interest. Keep in mind, a free market system prices are determined by supply and demand and some color morphs will maintain their value longer, as breeders tend to hold back upper tier specimens for their own collections. As was already mentioned, the repetitive inbreeding causes gene loss, resulting in physiological anomalies such as autoimmune and neurological deficiencies along with a host of physical anomalies such as bilateral and unilateral anophthalmia and spinal anomalies, so breeders of color morphs often produce specimens which are unmarketable.
Your comparison, regarding the price of color morph Python r reticulatus and Python regius, requires some consideration. First, you must realize the number of offspring such specimens can produce, remember supply and demand, as female P. r reticulatus will deposit between 25 – 80 eggs at oviposition, as compared to the 4 – 8 eggs one can expect from a female P. regius. Heck, I can remember back in 1983, not to give away my age, when amelanistic Python m bivittatus (Burmese python) were selling for 12K and up!
I understand your frustration and I would hope that the high price would not be an antagonist for you, but rather a motivation to work, save and strive to reach a level of economic ability which will allow you to make such an acquisition and fatten your own coffers with the proceeds of the offspring you produce. Ball pythons are not the only species which cause such frustration for those left wanting, as I often see the same thing among chondro python enthusiasts and a few others…

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Well i agree that the large clutch sizes of large breed pythons does affect prices, I would imagine that this would also be somewhat canceled out as one can breed many ball pythons in the space of one retic. I would imagine that large scale breeders produce similar numbers of bps and large pythons simply because they breed many bps and fewer retics. My fasicnation has always been on the fact that the industry can thrive without the general public! Large scale breeders make lots of their money selling to startup breeders who hope that oneday they can turn a profit by selling to more startup breeders. So the cycle continues. This is the only way they can sell snakes for thousands of dollars. If all the hobbiest decided not to buy these "investment" animals the breeders would have to produce larger numbers and lower prices by like 80% or more. The effect would be immediate. Wake up and buy a pastel for like $150! Of couse it would really suck for the people who just bought a pastel for like $3000.

-Alec

You're exactly right, regarding the size too, as few people actually have the facilities to maintain large constrictors, so teh smaller P. regius appeals to them as well.
I believe you would be surprised by the number of people who have purchased high end color morph P. regius simply to have one as a pet, as I know MANY folks who have done just that, though not everyone has a desire to post their business and / or animals on the internet. I know a few who refrain from posting out of fear someone might discover where they live and attempt to steal their animals, a very real threat in todays society I'm afraid.
While the "morph du jour" will certainly go to other established breeders, at prices which could support some third world countries for a year, there are always those who simply wish to keep something "unique" and harbor the financial resources to acquire such.
If you believe color morph snakes are expensive and a lot of folks get their feelings hurt by getting left out, try looking into equines! My wife is a former national equestrian champion and breeder of Andalusian horses. This works perfectly well for me, as it allows me to justify any “high end” acquisitions I might be inspired to make, as the highest prices reptiles do not come close in comparing to the price of highest priced equines…

Just something to chew on,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

The bottom almost always falls out in the color morph game. One simply need look at what happened to the color morph market involving Lichanura trivirgata (rosy boas) and Eublepharis macularis (leopard geckos)in the not so distant past...

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

I am (or thriving to be) a hobbyist level breeder. I really enjoy my snakes and plan on breeding them to make some money. Not alot of money; I'll be happy if I can make just enough money to upgrade my cages, make trades to upgrade my collection, and pay for feeding. I am not out to be a millionaire.
I agree that the prices for some Ball morphs are very high, but thats the fun of the industry. Sooner or later those prices will become affordable. Hell, I just bought my first BP morph for 300 dollars (male pastel). I'll breed him to a normal female a few years down the road and I might make my money back and some for all of the rat pups he'll be eating. That's good enough for me. The "higher" prices, not the "insane" prices keep the hobby exciting for me. Your "collection" can go up and down in value. Its kind of like playing the stock market. There are some people in it for the thrill and fun, and some people in it for money.
Mostly, I just like to show off a pretty animal, and have a chance at hatching my own "morphs" (its like treasure hunting!).
So far my collection only consists of a male Pastel BP, a pair of het for albino W. hognoses, and a "red" w. hognose with a 66% chance of het for albino. I'm excited for the future of my collection.

Hey i agree. I hopfully will be producing a cltch of normals (yippee) next year and a pastel project could be possible as the prices are very reasonable. I just want people to remember to have fun keeping theri snake normals or not. As long as the the breeder is more interested in the fun of keeping snakes more than the money. Money will always be a factor but I dont want bps becoming a cash crop anymore than they already are.

I love my ball python,Snuggler, to death. He is one of my favorite animals. I would love to talk about caging or feeding strategies on ball python forums, but all I see is super pastel this, spider that. I don't understand half of the stuff the guys say on the forums, mostly they talk about morphs and genetics, and all kinds of things I don't understand. The one thing about the morph talk I do enjoy however, is that there are plenty of pictures of absolutely gorgeous animals I can daydream about obtaining! Best of luck.
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