Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Below i post a response to the origins of such traits as T negative, T positive and WS in Brooksi.

in there i stated that when you cross two species or two sub-species, the species/Ssp. you don't want the offspring to resemble can be "bred out" through generation after generation of breeding the cross/hybrid to the preferred "parent" snake.

i.e.

amel Cali X Brooksi = 100% hets

Het X Het = Amel cross

Amel cross X Brooksi = 100% hets resemble more brooksi than Cali

Het X Het = Amel cross

Amel cross X Brooksi =100% hets resemble more brooksi than Cali (probably appears pure brooksi)

Het x Het = Amel that greatly resembles a Brooksi

After doing this for a few generations the Cali is bred out but the recessive gene remains... (even shorter, selecting animals from all those pairs that resemble the preferred animal and breeding back to the "parent" snake.)In essence you have a pure Amel brooksi eventually... in theory it's still a cross but realistically you won't be able to find a genetic link to cali kings... besides the fact that YOU KNOW the amel gene was derived from a cali king.

I posted this cuz the reply i got to what i post lead me to believe the reader either was unable to understand what i meant or does not believe this is possible.

Thoughts?

~ZF

-----
Royal Blue ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

___

signature file edited 4/22/06; contact an admin.

Statisticly, the amount of calif genes would be

50 25 12.5 6.25 etc. (0.5^n)x100% - but that's only exact for the first 100% cali x 100% brooksi. How much cali gets passed on with subsequent crosses back to 100% brooksi can't be known.

But even if you do not see any visual signs of cali king in the pattern/stature of the snake, a lot of genes do not effect what can be seen by the naked eye.

My cousin has a genetic disease that is asian - his father (my uncle) was born in Germany from German parents and no one knows when the gene got introduced, but it did. His wifes side of the family, they know where it came from - but there is absolutely no visual indication whatsoever that my Uncle, his mother and father, his grandparents on both sides, are anything but full german. Yet clearly there is an asian ancestor somewhere, and that recessive gene got passed down. btw - my cousin looks just like his dad, and they found the gene in my uncle, so no - wife didn't cheat.

Point being - visual signs of the other subspecies or species may be gone, but that doesn't mean it isn't still carrying genes beyond the morph gene you selectively bred for, so it should not be marketed as pure - because it isn't.
-----
3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

I would like to clarify -

A snake caught in the wild may not be "pure" either - it may have gotten its magic gene from another species through wild hybridizing, or an escaped pet of another subspecies, etc.

But if it is intentionally done in captivity, then the breeder knows that there are genes from another species or subspecies, and it is thus in my mind deceptive to no disclose that.

If I buy a snake because I like how it looks, then I like how it looks regardless of the genetics behind it. But if I buy a snake because I want a specimen with no known hybridization or integrades in its history, and the breeder is hiding a known hybrid/integrade in its history, then the breeder is lying about his product to get a sale.
-----
3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

In snakes or humans.

Snakes in the wild and people in inner cities will continue to cross breed long after we are gone. Based on geographical events, I beleive that most of the kingsnakes in north america originated from the black milk in south america...no joke.

For me - "pure" means that every single gene in the specimen could be found at one point in time in the wild population of the species/subspecies/locale.

A "pure" cali king X "pure" brooksi would be a pure L. getula but it would not be a "pure" of either above.

It is possible to get a "pure" cali or brooksi from the offspring, but no way to ever really know.

A "pure" Redding, CA locale California Kingsnake X a "pure" Walnut Creek, CA locale California Kingsnake would be a pure California Kingsnake, but not a locale specimen.

Locale snakes will change with time as genes get introduced and removed, but for breeding purposes, it indicates that every single ancestor in the breeding colony is WC from that locale.
-----
3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

What about the Andean and the Giant Ecudorian Milk found further south into S. America than than The Black Milk ? Ive heard some pretty smart people say that Black Milks may have originated from them in fact. Im not persay discounting your theory because the Central and S. American Milks are more Kingsnake like than the diminutive N. American Triangulum thats for sure.

Keith
-----

Your quote from below

"This is what I think:

Peanut Butter, Hypo and axanthics are pure.

What do you mean by this?
-----

bluerosy-i would be interested in hearing some extent of an explanation behind that theory,and where you initally heard it proposed if it's not your own(of L. triangulum gaigae being the original lampropeltis).....if you'd rather,just comm. with me via email-justinian2120@hotmail.com.......thanks

-----
"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

It's logical that all kingsnakes would have a common ancestor, but I suspect that the real common ancestor is no longer around, and that all species have speciated since then - just maybe some more than others.
-----
3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

right....but again i want to know why he believes it to be the black milksnake.
-----
"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

Good post Agree 100% but remember that some see a fine line between lying and not knowing and as a seller you may not get to make that call. When dealing with CB snakes I think its best to always admit the potential for stray genes.

i undersand your point but i am not talking about marketing... i'm just talking about the Genes

cali X brooksi = 50% Brooksi 50Êli

cai-brooksi X brooksi = 75% Brooksi 25% Cali

75/25 cali-brooksi X brooksi = 87.5% Brooksi 12.5% Cali

87.5/12.5 cali-brooksi X brooksi = 93.75 Brooksi 6.25% Cali

93.75/6.25 cali-brooksi X brooksi = 96.875% Brooksi 3.125% Cali

96.875/3.125 cali-brooksi X brooksi = 98.4375% Brooksi 1.5625% Cali

98.4375/1.5625 cali-brooksi X brooksi = 99.21875% Brooksi 0.78125% Cali

99.21875/0.78125 cali-brooksi X brooksi =99.609375% Brooksi 0.390625% Cali

99.609375/0.390625 cali-brooksi X brooksi = 99.8046875% Brooksi 0.1953125% Cali

99.8046875/0.1953125 cali-brooksi X brooksi =99.90234375% Brooksi 0.09765625% Cali

i can go on but i think u got the point... few more back breedings and TRY finding the cali in such a small percentage.

~ZF
-----
Royal Blue ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

___

signature file edited 4/22/06; contact an admin.

As you said yourself, the Cali is in the amel gene. And as FunkyRes said it may also be in some hidden gene that does not affect the phenotype.

> cali X brooksi = 50% Brooksi 50Êli
>
>cai-brooksi X brooksi = 75% Brooksi 25% Cali
>
> 75/25 cali-brooksi X brooksi = 87.5% Brooksi 12.5% Cali

Only the first one is known.

50Êli/50%brooksi X 100 brooksi

could result in anything from 0% cali 100% brooksi to 50Êli.

obviously the 0% cali and 50% cali are highly unlikely, but possible.

Which genes get passed is like flipping a coin.
Flip a quarter 50 times - and you have the highest probability of getting 25 heads. But you could get 19 or you could get 27.

To further complicate it, some genes are common between both subspecies, and which subspecies they came from doesn't matter because they are the same.
-----
3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Interesting thread, which I am getting into late. I am not making any statement for or against backcrossing to get purer crosses. It doesn't really bother me as long as every one is hoest about. But just going by raw percents can be a little misleading.

For example, in the "99.8046875/0.1953125 cali-brooksi X brooksi =99.90234375% Brooksi 0.09765625% Cali" cross there would still be 0.098 (Êli genes) x ~25000 (good estimate for number of genes in the genome)=2450 genes that are from the cali.

And not all those genes will be the same from individual to individual. In fact, statistically the chance of getting to offspring from the above cross with the exact same set of 2450 cali genes is 0.098. So the offsring from this cross will acutally be very varaiable genetically wrt the cali genes.

So that small percentage is about 2450 cali.

Best,
Vinny
-----
“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

Boy these types of post would be perfect for Brian Reeder who is a gentics expert . He posts here once in a while . Maybe I can get him to drop in for this thread.

Basically what I was toild is that when you breed back an animal to it intended species a few times, it becomes that animal. I beleive in farming certian animals this is quite a well known fact.

The fact is that you will not be able to change many of the "purists" minds that a man made morph from a cross, no matter how many generations removed from the cross, is "pure". Nor will they be able to change your mind that it is not. This is likely to drive both sides crazy, but I think there is room for both opinions on this forum. People have the right to enjoy the kind of snakes they wish to without purist vs. hybrid/crossbreeder wars.

Zenny

What we are basically doing when breeding snakes in captivity is farming (herpetoculture = farmimg)so we are all farmers.... Something man has done since the beginning of time.

I beleive you hit the nail on the head for whats in store for the future of herpetoculture. ..

Besides the dang Ball pythons nut craze has to fizzle out soon. ... the market will crash and herpetoculture will move in a new direction. Its gonna happen soon.

Whats the new direction you believe herpetoculture will move into ?

Keith
-----

The rate of habitat destruction creates the sense of urgency in the purists about preserving those lines. That’s the future- these man assisted creations may be the only things you are allowed to keep someday for the same reason. In Florida we are allowed to keep albino Pine snakes, not “natural” ones. I think it is hard to impress with a snake that is the exact same thing in an old snake book from before they had color pictures. We are seeing things every season that have never been seen before. It is exciting. I think for most folks peeking into the deli cup it matters not what it is mixed with. Most of the outrageous tricolors make crappy pets. As long as the frankenbrooks is the same big ol’ happy snake we’ve come to know and love, what’s wrong with refining designer colors? It is just a crazy hobby when all is said and done, but it does take the pressure off collecting of native populations. Both sides of this are contributing to that.

How about looking at it this way...

1 cup of water X 1 cup of urine

1 cup of 50/50(water/Urine Mix) X 1 cup of Water = 25% Urine 75% Water

1 cup of 25/75 (Urine/Water Mix) X 1 cup of water =....Would you drink it ?

Not me....

Sorry gross anology but its basically how I feel about the process. No matter how many times you cut it there is still some there be it piss or cal king or whatever.

Keith
-----

The water you drink has been urinated in, by humans and animals. like alot.

Which is sorta the whole point. Very very few captive breedings are breedings that would have occured in nature, therefore they are not pure(for lack of a better word)

Also, in nature, all reptiles, kingsnakes included, throw a range of colors and patterns. What survives is what fits the best, in a changing envoirnment. Its called selection. In captivity, no matter what you say, you select in a different manner then nature. So the most pure locale breedings, will evenually migrate in a different direction then its historic origins.

For instance, all here select for what you call, pretty ones. I have never seen anyone select for ugly ones. hahahahahahahahahaha It is just about that simple.

You are all welcome to call these wonderful animals anything you like, but once they are bred in captivity, they have parted with what is natural. As in, they are no longer pure. Cheers

What one person calls pure and what another calls pure all depends on what their definition of the word is. (reminds me of Bill Clinton saying " it depends on what your definition of "is" is)

some here seem to use the defintion "if it looks pure it must be"

some here seem to use the definition "that all the genes could be found in a wild specimen of that species"

and some are saying that "only wild snakes can be considered pure"

Unless there is some universally accepted standard of what "pure" means in the herp community, no-one is really wrong or right.

We are free to use our own definition. As for me, I agree with Keith and Funky Res.

There are laws that prohibit releasing captive snakes. Both for health reasons(not very reasonable) and for reasons of genetics.

One huge problem I see with users of this forum that practive the work pure. Is you made your own rules. You call pure, the same state or county. Consider, that is purely in your own minds and have little to do with what is actually occuring with snakes. Consider, a genetically pure colony of a species may occur in areas larger or smaller then a county. There may be several genetic colonies in one county.

As your name as arizona in it. I will use an example from here. In southern ariz, we have counties with several distint mountain ranges. These mountain ranges contain isolated populations of snake species. So we use names like a Santa Rita pyro, or Patagonia Pyro, or a Canelo hills pyro.

As these pyros can be very very different from mountain range to mountain range. This is an example for you, but in other states the same types of things occur within a single species in a single county.

The more genetics is used to determine what a snake is, the more we find out how unique each population is.

So the term pure does have different meanings to different people.

Because there is so little known, the only answer is, The only pure snakes are snakes that are still wild and doing what they do with no human interference. Consider, farmland populations of snakes have different unnatural selection points then snakes that occur in natural habitats . So is one of them pure and one not?

This was explained to me many many years ago by Joesph Collins. Cheers

You mean I agree with Joe Collins on something!?! LOL. Nice post Frank. IMHO the term "pure" simply doesn't apply to captive stocks.

I understand what you're saying Frank. Even if you're locale specific to a particular mountain range, or canyon for that matter, when you take natural selection out of the formula you're not getting the "pure" wild look of that area. You can see this in pyros. People are taking wild caught Santa Rita pyros, then selectively breeding them for perfect patterns, low band count, reduced black, etc.. until you get an animal that does not represent a wild Santa Rita pyro. I posted a photo of a wild pyro I took in the Santa Ritas, and a nationally known pyro breeder responded "that's not a Santa Rita pyro". Hmmmmmm, funny I was standing in the Santa Ritas when I took the picture. He was used to seeing the line bred ones. So your definition of a "pure" snake is when natural behavior and selection are able to take place.

Other people's definition of pure snake is one that has not been crossed with a different sub-species or species.

Other's definition is that it looks like it's "pure" even if it has been knowingly crossed to something else.

The definition of semantics? Different people applying a different meaning to the same word. In this case "pure".

Everyone can argue that they are right and everyone else is wrong , but it is pointless.

FR, you seem to have the strictist definition, and the folks into hybrids and crosses have the loosest.

The reason this thread was posted is because those who are creating floridana crosses want to represent them as floridana "brooksi" and nothing else. Yes, it's being done already with lavenders and whitesides. They want to bring genes in from other sub-species, and species and then claim they have bred them back to "pure" status again. You asked Keith something like "are there different levels of pollution?" The answer is yes. There is a big difference between line breeding within a subspecies and creating hybrids.

Levels could be- from least polluted to most

1. wild
2. locale specific
3. "pure" subspecies (may be line bred for certain traits)
4. "pure species" (may be crossed with another sub of the same species)
5. hybrid (crossed with member of same genus, but not species)
6. hybrid (crossed with another genus, like a king and a rat)
etc... there could be many levels in between.

There are lots of folks who do not care about cross breeding, they just care about looks. Fine for them.

There are others who do not want animals that have been crossed to anything, they used to dominate this forum but many have bailed out to other places.

There are those who only want locale specific or wild caught.

There's room for everyone as long as there isn't trolling or taunting going on.

Pure Santa Rita Pyro? Kinda looks like a knob. I bet you know the canyon.

Yes, we finally agree, hahahahahahahaha. I think we agree a lot, just to disagree is louder. hahahahahaha

Yes you can find that type of pyros in the Ritas. Not the most common pattern morph, but does occur thru out all the southern mountains.

Yes, I have a strict interpitation. Ifs its not in nature, then its not pure. That is so very easy to follow. Takes away all the doubts.

The original conversation is sorta odd to start with. Its about an albino brooks. Which is so very funny. An albino is a weak mutation in nature, therefore should not be considered PURE anything other then an albino. In other words, albinos are not natural. They normally do not survive. ALong with many many other mutations that occur in nature.

So they are arguing about a mutant, mutant, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Sorry, that is funny. Cheers

I think “pure” is a great term to describe captive produced and human selected snakes that originated from a given locality. Locality has become arbitrary as you pointed out and varies from a given rock pile up to the entire range of a Ssp. depending on what type of snakes you are talking about.

I think “natural” is what we see in the wild.

The moment a human being decides what two snakes should both survive and be bred together to reproduce a certain look, disposition, etc.; they are no longer natural (and most of us do not even realize how subtle the selection may be). Human selection is what we do to suit our desires; natural selection is what happens in the real world to continue a species (Ssp.). I think we agree?

Two AZ Mountain Kings from the Santa Ritas may be considered pure, but if they were not found within a few 100 yards of each other the likely hood those two “pure” snakes would ever breed naturally is non existent. And even then, most people would be selective about breeding only really “pretty” pyros together even if they came from the same rock pile; just because they were found near each other doesn’t mean the pairing is natural (there may be some butt ugly pyro in the rock pile that that pretty one is going to breed with).

My L. m. thayeri are pure, but they are certainly not natural.

I also think certain traits survive not because it is the best suited for the environment, but because there is nothing in the environment that makes it a real detriment either. Stripe vs. banded in Cal Kings is a good example I think. Both versions are readily found as breeding adults in areas that favors neither version (grass and thick underbrush). In areas that are more sparsely vegetated, the banded form is visually harder to see (for me anyway) and is far more common than striped.
-----
Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

Im sure it has urine in it but I guess like alot of fellow herpetoculturist ignorance is bliss and I still drink the water lol and try not too think about whats in there. I make up for it in being picky about the snakes I buy

In regards to what you are saying I agree but you are referring to natural genetic movement not 2 snakes from different sides of the Continent. I also agree once its bred in captivity they are parted with whats natural but like anything its not that black and white some are further away from natural than others.

Keith
-----

Heres the deal Keith, your welcome to practice what you like. No worries. But you should question yourself why you go by the rules you do. Are they to support your own direction? The answer would be yes. Your choices are self made. They are not made with any scientific or even social rules. They are because you want them to be(nothing wrong with that either)

In all reality, like the water you drink, most captive snakes are polluted, like the original albino brooks in this thread. With ones you buy, you are basing your decisions on what your told, not on the real genetics of the snake in question. And your basing it on the looks of that snake, which has very little bearing on how pure it is. Again like the water, when you buy snakes that are offered as pure, your only hoping they are pure, as there is no way of knowing.

Then consider what pure means. I would imagine it would mean totally unpolluted. Or are you saying like the water, there are degrees of pollution that are acceptable to you? Cheers

You are argueing against a point or definition I have yet to make. Im sorry you feel the need to tell me how I decide what snakes to buy or what I consider to be "pure". Did I rundown my criterea here ? I dont think so, lets keep it in the realm of what I said or wrote instead of what you think Im thinking please. Here is what I just responded to Tony D below

I dont consider a natural intergrade unpure nor do I consider non locales mixed unpure of the same sub-species. I consider a Cal King X Eastern King unpure. Its that simple. If they dont naturally intergrade they arent pure as in closest to what nature provides. You guys take the word pure too literally.

Now are all captives potentially polluted yes as are wild animals but you have to draw your own line and use what you feel is your best criterea or what you are willing to accept. I for instance try and buy animals not too far removed from wild stock and from reliable sources. I dont base my judgements on looks alone but its part of the equation. Only a fool would these days especially with some of these crosses looking remarkably like one parent or the other. I dont own any Brooksi morphs any Cal Kings are Corns just Eastern Kings. Easterns I believe havent been polluted to extent of the other animals I listed...yet! They will be though and are now probably some jack asses doing who knows what.

Keith

>>Heres the deal Keith, your welcome to practice what you like. No worries. But you should question yourself why you go by the rules you do. Are they to support your own direction? The answer would be yes. Your choices are self made. They are not made with any scientific or even social rules. They are because you want them to be(nothing wrong with that either)
>>
>> In all reality, like the water you drink, most captive snakes are polluted, like the original albino brooks in this thread. With ones you buy, you are basing your decisions on what your told, not on the real genetics of the snake in question. And your basing it on the looks of that snake, which has very little bearing on how pure it is. Again like the water, when you buy snakes that are offered as pure, your only hoping they are pure, as there is no way of knowing.
>>
>> Then consider what pure means. I would imagine it would mean totally unpolluted. Or are you saying like the water, there are degrees of pollution that are acceptable to you? Cheers
-----

You would learn to read. In the first paragraph, I stated, you are allow to do whatever you wish and call it what you want, too. Cheers and chill out dude

In all reality, like the water you drink, most captive snakes are polluted, like the original albino brooks in this thread.

Maybe, one day, there will be snake filters used to clean the dirty hybrids out so we all can enjoy fresh, clean, pure snakes again.

...the loop!
I just plucked down a mere $119.96 (4 easy payments of $29.99)for my "RonCo ionic Hybrid-ease filter system!"
No more unwanted poo-poo snakes for me.
"It saves time..It saves money.. It saves...
"Hey,
Wait!...there's more....don't turn that dial!"....

:Mark
-----
Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Well Mark, tell me more please about this exciting, new invention!

Seriously though, with technology advancing so quickly, maybe one day we'll have something that we can simply put a shed skin sample/tissue sample/etc. in and it will tell us the DNA results of our animals. I think that would be pretty cool!

NOW THAT"S funny! Mark, I know you are a reputable distributer for said filter made in the good 'ol U.S, of A.! Where can I get one and will you have them for sale at Daytona! I'll take two! No poopoo snakes for me! Sometimes this forum rocks! LE ces't bon ton roullaize!!!! AIEEEEE! I get off seein' all the funky $h1t goini' down in the city, but the pure animals,(w.c. in their natural habitat) do it for me. That being said, I plan to throw Matt's ex het for lav. checkerboard speck into a Calhoun county, Texas speckled king (that could be part splendida) to see what happens and to get 'em both laid! I will also throw the same male in with a Refugio county speck as they are technically from abutting counties separated by a river, and another female from his side of the creek. Why? Cause they live in my house now and that way I may be able to have something for everyone! I love the specks and know that they aren't being messed with by anyone in that neck of the woods! LOL! But ya' gotta love them whitewalled specks Tom threw the other day! Everyone, it's all good and do what you want, just be up front about it! There is always gonna be some people who don't do what you like, but there ain't no laws agin it so buyer beware. If I bought from anyone, and they know who they are, I trusted them AND liked how they did business AND liked what they had for sale. MY $36.84
Todd Hughes

the human eye can never compare to natural selection.

That is a great analogy that I have to remember.

Vinny
-----
“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

How are you going to backbreed though if you don't have pure ones to do the backbreeding with? How do you really know what a pure morph like an amel would look like if one has never been seen?

you lost me a little

I never spoke of breeding cross to "pure", because i don't think any snake (WC, locale, CB) can be considered pure, the common ancestor they all may have shared thousands of years ago is the only thing i'd consider pure. i'm saying breeding the cross back to the desired lineage would yield snakes with the look of the desired "parent" snake (parent not meaning back to the dame or sire parent meaning the particular Ssp. you want the mutation to resemble)

now as far as being a "pure" morph, in theory it'll NEVER be a "pure" morph because another Ssp. played a part in it's creation, but actually and genetically it would be "pure" after consecutive generations of back breeding to the desired "parent" snake.
-----
Royal Blue ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

___

signature file edited 4/22/06; contact an admin.

I mean a wild snake when I say pure. Once in captivity they depart. By pure morph I mean one found in the wild. By you don't know what a pure amel morph looks like I mean a wild amel could look different from a manmade one because there could be underlying colors that are lost or changed when crossed. In other words if you are trying to create an amel brooksi by introducing the amel cal king into a wild brooksi it is impossible to select for the right colors. You can select for pattern because the pattern of brooksi is known but you cant select for color because the color of an amel brooksi is not known. A good example of hidden colors is the amel ruthveni, who would have guessed some would have yellow hiding beneath the black bands?

I would just like to add to my earlier comments -

I don't have a problem with people who create these crosses.
I just want them to be honest about it.

There is no benefit to the trade when you hide the known genetic history of a snake.
-----
3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Posted by: FunkyRes at Mon Jul 24 08:11:33 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I don't have a problem with people who create these crosses.
I just want them to be honest about it.

Your statement does not make any sense to me.

Why would anyone want someone to be dishonest? If they are going to be dishonest the there is nothing you can do about it.

I want world peace. But it ain't gonna happen.

Look what happened when Sean posted that patternless Goini. Even though he made it clear he wasn’t sure of its origins, he still got ripped. Some are hoping salesmen of snakes to be different than used car or any other salesman. There are a few you can trust. As always, buyer beware. You’ve got guys claiming their freaky stuff originated from a wild caught, with no pictures or always the same “the female that started it died” story. Then you have others posting pictures while the new thing is still in the egg with complete history. You know who’s who by now. If it really matters (as a caveman once said to the insurance salesman) “yea, maybe next time do a little research”. Buyer beware!

Except that sub-specifics are not pure. They are not reproductively isolated. The only thing that can be pure is locality and that doesn't say anything about the genetics of the stock. You can have locality eastern king stock that has some goini influence to it. Selectively breed for offspring that look like goini and produce a goini look alike that isn't a goini. Agreed Cal king X Brooks king is a whole order of magnatude of difference but generally that is not where the issue lays. Issues here are genrally with the deliberate crossings to adjacent sub-specific forms. Ie Goini X Brooks, eastern X Brooks, eastern X Goini, Brooks X eastern..... I'd have thrown in FL kings too but that would have made the list too long.

I dont consider a natural intergrade unpure nor do I consider non locales mixed unpure of the same sub-species. I consider a Cal King X Eastern King unpure. Its that simple. If they dont naturally intergrade they arent pure as in closest to what nature provides. You guys take the word pure too literally.

Keith
-----

"Hmmm well I think we dont know enough about the parents. Are they WC ? Where did they originate from ? I agree that looks like a Goini superficially much like my Easterns but it looks more like a Florida/Brooksi X Blotched King. My guess is there is soem Goini in his mix from maybe the grandparents ??? Who really knows and as much as Brooksi have been messed with nothing suprises me anymore. Its one of the reasons I dont work with Brooksi anymore"

Now you didn't say pure in this post but obviously you too are taking pure down to a lower level than coast to coast outcrossings.

I also said I dont consider natural intergrades to be unpure. Floridana and "Goini" dont naturally intergrade. Im not sure what your getting at in your re-post of my comments. Did I contradict myself ? I might add while I dont consider natural intergrades as unpure I do tolerate some more than others, I guess its subjective to ones personal feelings or views.

Keith
-----

From my limited experience (3 years living in FL) its only a relatively small (area wise) population of classic looking easterns that buffer the integrade zones with goini and FL. IMHO a reasonable person would assume (and yes I know the addage) gene flow of some degree across all three forms.

I quoted you not because you contradicted yourself but because sometimes its hard to nail down what you think or where you're standing on an issue. This was an example. If it needs further explaining here is how I saw it unflod:

1) you site CA X FL as an example of an unpure cross
2) I counter with crossings and integrades from a more restricted area.
3) you say I define "pure" to narrowly
4) I sight that you also have issue with more closely aligned subspecies as well.

I'm not throwing stones here, just trying to make sence of your position.

You know this topic gets quite lively but I think its mostly because it is never allowed to run its course. If we would stick to what we believe (and can logically support), stop playing devil's advocate and let this run its course it'll likely peter out all on its own.

Yeah left field thinking I know but one can hope!

Tony

Im solid in my stance. I havent wavered at all or do you find I beat around the bush and not express myself ? lol I said and its quite simple Tony (maybe that left field thinking is messin you up) Natural intergrades are fine by me unnatural ones arent. Whats confusing you? Did some Floridana genetic material get into Goini ??? I dont know doesnt seem so...at least visually. You can see Floridana influence in Easterns up into extereme SE Georgia but it doesnt seem to be the case on the otherside of the state ??? I wonder why ? Really I wonder is it that natural barriers kept the gene flow down ? Anyway dont use my one example of a Cal X Eastern cross as my standard. I said unnatural intergrades. For someone who wants free flowing open discussion you sure are getting hung up on my verbage.
-----

I'm done.

I don't understand how we humans got separated from nature. If you take a snake from here and another snake from there and they breed, then that is pretty natural. They only criteria that nature requires is survival. The most important thing to survival is variation, without variation life would be extinct. You guys are trying to eliminate variation to the point that the snakes are almost clonal and calling them pure. In nature the snakes just survive and do what they do. We need to characterize things, and neatly organize them into little groups, but we are changing the critters to fit the groups, and that does't make any sense. It should be the other way around. You guys are arguing that this is pure and that is pure bla bla bla, but they are all the same snake, they all have the same genes, some have this triat expressed or that expressed and the environment has selected for the ones that are most successful in that local, but given the opportunity that can change very quickly. If I see a genetically isolated anything in nature something is wrong and local extinction is most likely to occur. I say hybridize away, but keep good records so we know the steps.
Cheers,
P.S. This is my opinion and its not popular, but if you want to preserve a spp. then stick it in a jar of ethanol and date it with the locality, because spp is a human term that should be plastic, the animals change with time that is inevitable.
-----
Jason L. Dobry
Research Associate
College of Veterinary Medicine
Department of Veterinary Comparative Anatomy, Pharmacology and Physiology
Washington State University

it's about time someone brought real info to this forum,thank's for your opinion.

np

"P.S. This is my opinion and its not popular, but if you want to preserve a spp. then stick it in a jar of ethanol and date it with the locality, because spp is a human term that should be plastic, the animals change with time that is inevitable."

Of course animals change with time. We all realize that. It happens very slowly, over really long periods of time. Or, humans can make it happen right away. We are talking about preserving in captivity animals that are as identical as possible to those that exist in nature right now.

Or simply asking that people who do hibridize are honest about their product.

Albino gene may be a weaker gene, but it exists in the wild California Kingsnake gene pools.

Selective breeding in captivity may result in different genes being more common in captive specimens, but really, this is no different than locale variations - because the genes are still genes that are found in wild gene pool, only difference is that humans are doing the selection rather than the survival needs of a specific locale.

introducing california kingsnakes genes into brooksi variety is not morally wrong, it is marketing the result as a brooksi and not as a known integrade that is morally wrong.
-----
3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Wild albino cals? how many have been discoverd in the last 100 yrs? 1? 2? maybe 3? more than 10? albino snakes are picked off by birds much more easily than normals.

The gene is recessive - and if I'm not mistaken, every albino cal is the offspring of albinos that were wild caught.

The gene isn't common, but it is out there - and continues to be out there, as it give the snake disadvantage unless there happen to be two of the genes.
-----
3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

as it give the snake disadvantage unless there happen to be two of the genes.

should read

as it doesn't give the snake disadvantage unless there happen to be two of the genes.
-----
3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

I believe you are mistaken about ALL albino cals have albino parents, i thought the albino gene is just a random recessive trait that happens every so many generations.
I have black mice that produce pink-eyed white albinos believe it or not.
genetics is genetics reptile or mammal, please correct me if i'm wrong.

Its true that not all albinos have to come from an albino parent. The gene could only exist as hets in the wild, never comming together to produce a homozygous offspring if they are just not a lot of hets around. Take a het into captivity though, and its only a matter of time befor the albino pop up because the reduced population size of the captive pop leads to inbreeding. Cant avoid it.

But, it is really unlikely that random mutations are constantly producing more and more copies of the mutant gene. So "the happens every so many generations" part is much more likely to be the comming together of two hets to produce the albino when no one knew they had hets, and very very unlikely to be the appearance of a new albino mutation. It can happen, but is just not very likely (like much worse than lottery odds). Liek for your mice, there are hets in there (maybe not a lot of them) that very so often come together to produce an albino. Breed those albinos back the the parents and i bet they are both het.

Best,
Vinny
-----
“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

yes i should have clarified that in order for albinos to be produced, both parents should be carrying the albino gene tho not nescessarily expressing it. Does this make better sense please let me know if it don't.
and yes ALL my feeder mice are carriers of the albino gene some are even white with black eyes, just something strange that happened, what a diverse gene pool!

Or simply asking that people who do hibridize are honest about their product

Let get something clear. The last person who would pull something like this a known hybridizer. It is the ones breeding pure morphs and constantly spouting about purity are the ones I worry about.

Ask anyone with a WS brooks, Hypo pueblin or amel splendida if they are the real deal. Ask the originators of these animals if they are the real deal. Do you think you will get an honest answer?

It is someone who is secretly breeding these to make a profit and lies about it then they are theifs.

Have you ever heard of the saying, the lady doth protesteth to much.

> It is someone who is secretly breeding these to make a profit and
> lies about it then they are theifs.

I agree - but promoting honesty in the general herp fan population can help prevent that - at least I hope so.
-----
3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

I agree - but promoting honesty in the general herp fan population can help prevent that - at least I hope so.

How can you promote honesty? IS it like the old drug campaign..."just say NO".

You're gonna run in to crooks where ever you go and there's no getting away from it.

> How can you promote honesty? IS it like the old drug
> campaign..."just say NO".

Simple - when people post questions about their hybrid offspring that "looks like a pure Florida King" and ask if they can call it that, respond no - they can't call it, because that's not what it is - and its ancestry should be disclosed when it is sold or passed on, rather than trying to pass it off as "pure Florida king" which it isn't, even though it looks like one.
-----
3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

"Ask anyone with a WS brooks, Hypo pueblin or amel splendida if they are the real deal. Ask the originators of these animals if they are the real deal. Do you think you will get an honest answer?"

Isn't that a little presumptuous to say? I know people who breed all three of your examples and they would be as honest as they can be. And also, you don't think it is possible for these types of snakes to have the white sided, hypo, and amel genes in them while they would be pure?
-----
Genesis 1:1

You know the root of the conversation is not that hybridizers should honestly report what they have and what they are doing. I think everyone here is in agreement with that. The question is how honest the guys who say their stuff is pure are. Some, many, perhaps even most are indeed 100% honest about it but some aren't and these guys will make subjective calles on stock based on phenotype and their "years of experience" with zero background info. These are the guys who allow back crossed hybrids to enter "pure" collections not the hybridizers.

Personally the really good locality/purity guys I know have learned to trust very little stock offered by others and rely on what they or a very close friend / associate have captured for themselves. Another thing of note, few of them are very tied up in commercial herpetoculture aspect of this. They are in it for the love of the hobby not for financial gain or elevated guru status. That I admire!!

I like it!!!!

What's up wit dat?

LOL

I like to remember that us snake lovers/breeders are at the very early stage in this whole thing. Look at domesticated animals - dogs, cats, cows, etc. How many generations have they been through with humans controlling the selective breeding? Aficionados aside, not many people keep Wolves, African Wildcats, or Cape Buffalo as pets. One can still out-cross cats, dogs, etc. to their wild siblings, and some do, but the offspring are certainly not domestic animals.

Many of the things discussed in this thread are common practices in domestic animal husbandry. I have big beefy longhorn cows. I want the same big beefy cow but without the long horns. I breed in a scrawny cow with no horns, then select the offspring that combine the two desirable characters.

Meanwhile, python breeders are breeding dwarf retics, ball morphs are all the rage, and breeders debate "What is a pure snake". I think that in about 100 more generations we will have truly domestic snakes - as unlike their wild siblings as a Chihuahua is to a Timber Wolf.

Regards,

John D
-----
I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"

good points john d,but while i admit there's validity to both sides,i without a doubt still appreciate that i can select a captive bred snake that is kept as close as possible to what i can also go see in the wild,and not have to collect a wild specimen and add yet more pressure to what may be a population with limited time left here e.g. pituophis ruthveni(see pic below)/heterodon simus/or even 'taxonomically invalid' stuff like goini or obx kings.please don't tell me we're all destined to be 'jungle caramel cornball',or whatever keepers.

-----
"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

Ha! - those 'jungle caramel cornballs' are SO yesterday!

I'm working on a 'dwarf salt-and-pepper, buttered caramel-popcorn, tobasco-tri-color, melts in-your-mouth not-in-your hands, tootsi-frootsi ice-a-creme' Elaphropeltuspitophython regiobsogetulodon gobrooklauberuthviridilocki.

Should have hatchlings next year!

Email me get on the waiting list!

Non-refundable deposit of 1 Troy pound .999 solid Gold!

Now all i have to do is sit back and wait....

JPD

-----
I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"

how much of these folks' opinions concerning validity of locale specificity/'morality' of captive produced distantly separated subspecies(e.g. californiae x floridana) would change if/when all these are 'sunken' into one (note contiguous range)subspecies coast to coast with just color pattern variations throughout the whole range....or for that matter if all lampropeltines-all producing viable offspring were lumped into one genus(I KNOW CRAZY RIGHT?) ala varanus,monitor lizards...?
-----
"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

I have been emailed by two herpetological experts recently, Collins at CNAH and Mendelson at ZooAtlanta herpetology Dept. They have written me that subspecifics are on the outs. Which means Lampropeltis getula will be just be that, No holbrooki or nigra or splendida or nigrita etc., etc, etc.
I would like to see it get busted down into thirds, western,(cal-splendida-nigrita) central(holbrooki-nigra)and eastern (eastern-floridana)
if that's crazy let me know.