Reptile & Amphibian Forums

this seems to be "the thing" to talk about lately, so who here beleives the kings from Ga. are pure lgg and why? also please explain your take on purity in a subspecies and the differation between subspecies and phenotype,,,,thanks for playin,,,,,,,,thomas

I've given my definition.

If every gene in a snake can be found in the wild population for a snake, then it is pure.

If a rat snake introduces its genes to the wild florida king population, those genes are now part of the wild florida king population.

There is no way to catalogue every single gene in the wild population of a subspecies, so in captivity, if you care about purity you do so by not hybridizing with other species or subspecies. If you don't care, that's your business - integrade away, a lot of really cool looking snakes are the results of designer integration. But please be honest about it.

If I cross a cal king from one locale with a cal king from another locale, I can not call the offspring locale specific. Why then should I be able to call a snake a brooksi that has non brooksi genes in it? I shouldn't - it'd not a brooksi, it may be a gorgeous snake - but it is an integrade or a hybrid.
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

The entire argument is about what to call the things, but the problem is that brooksi is the name given to the snake purely because it looks different, not because of where its from or its genes. Nobody knows what the "brooksi" genes are, they especially didn't when they named them, but those same genes are present in the florida and eastern variaties. The difference is they are either turned on or off or have mediated levels of expression everywhere in between. Probably the reason you don't see the variation as much is because for some reason in nature those patterns might be a disadvantage thus the individuals born are less likely to survive and pass their genes, but in captivity their is no selective pressure like that. In fact we like it and that increases the brooksi influence in the population of captive snakes. You see gentlemen in reality brooksi is probably a small set of genes, or better yet it is the phenotype (what you see) like amel or whatever, but its definately not a locality.
Cheers,

"Relax, don't worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papizan

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Jason L. Dobry
Research Associate
College of Veterinary Medicine
Department of Veterinary Comparative Anatomy, Pharmacology and Physiology
Washington State University

We are all mixed up between classic field guide descriptions, the vernacular of the hobby breeders, the actual scientific names, and finding generally accepted terms for the new designer creations.
Brooks is most definitely something that is not an Eastern Kingsnake. We know from breeding them to every other kingsnake that they are genetically compatible to all of them. You can spend a zillion dollars and map the genome and you will come to the same conclusion. This is a field guide description that should be suitable for all but the dedicated made-for-grant-money scientists.

“The Brooks Kingsnake undergoes an ontogenetic color change from birth into adulthood (like the Rat snake) that Eastern Kings do not. In a good example, the dark bands lighten throughout its life. The pattern can lighten to the point of being completely diffused. Both characteristics do not occur in Eastern Kingsnakes. The bright yellow color of some adult Brooks Kingsnakes makes them highly prized among collectors, just as much so as the handsome high contrast chain like pattern of the Eastern Kingsnake makes them a favorite of the pet trade. Until large scale captive breeding of the finest light colored examples, collecting a Brooks Kingsnake meant searching suitable habitat in the sweltering heat of subtropical south Florida. Its limited range basically mirroring the historic range of the American Crocodile.”

Do you have a picture of one? CB or WC?
Thanks.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

"brooks" is just a mere Lampropeltis getula phase whether it be floridana or brooksi, of course people will call them what they want, it's a free country. I'm gonna call my floridana the Jetzen Jugulator Jetula Kings.

but e.kings do go through ontogenetic change somewhat red/orange always fade to light cream or yellow sometimes white a good example is hillsons Ga.kings look at his parents and grandparents they change dramatically as they age and also i beleive jetzen has posted some showin change ill dig through my pics and see if i can find what im talkin about,,,,like this big male he was quite red as a juvenile also his offspring had hints of orange that faded,,,,,,,,,,thomas

That works for me, I think the post below by Aaron sums it up well.
Cheers
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Jason L. Dobry
Research Associate
College of Veterinary Medicine
Department of Veterinary Comparative Anatomy, Pharmacology and Physiology
Washington State University

first off, "purity" is nothing but a figure of speech. And second, All gene pools are always "deviating"(evolving)whether in a natural enviorment or other.
And third, look it up in the dictionary it is a totally ridiculous word.
About phenotype, well, someone else can explain that, anyway I hope all is good for you and yours.

I have no opinion on Georgia kings, not that familiar with them.
My take on subspecies is that generally if there is an "apex" form then it is a subspecies. By apex I mean perfected. For example the apex form of Speckled Kings (L. g. holbrooki) would be the fully and evenly speckled ones.
I tend to segregate "pureness" in captive snakes into to classes.
Locality pure - snakes with a tracable lineage to wild snakes that could have or whose recent offspring or recent ancestors could have bred. By recent I mean a few hundred years or at least not so long that genetic drift or environmental changes can cause the snakes to morph into readily distinguishable looks. This has nothing to do with county lines, roads, towns etc., those are just names to point someone in the right direction.

Generic pure - snakes that very closely resemble or exactly match the apex form. They may include snakes from intergrade zones or possibly even manmade crosses and hybrids in thier lineage so long as they currently resemble and breed true in looks to the apex form. I would add though that if there is known recorded hybridization or crosses with other apex forms I would not consider them pure.

I would also say that some "apex froms" have other apex forms within them. For example I would say that Florida Kings are an apex form but within them is another apex form, the Brook's phase. It can get complicated because Brook's are a locality phase but there are also naturally occuring snakes that by looks are Brook's but not from the locality of Brook's. Also there are snakes from within the Brook's phases locality that do not fit the description of Brook's. In such cases I would call anything that look's like a Brook's a pure generic Brook's even if it's got some of the parent (Florida) apex form in it's history but not if it has non-parent (Eastern for example) apex from in it's history. If however there is no history and it looks like a Brook's I'd call it a Brook's.

This controversy along with the fact that I love hunting snakes in the wild and have learned how to collect most of what I want is what makes me prefer locality snakes and breed them true to their wild form (yes I select for the "ugly" ones if that is the natural form). I would also say though that a real nice generic apex form is a thing of beauty also.

display such reasonable logic in such a public forum!

the best post I've ever read on the subject. Well except for some of mine

Wow Tony, thanks. I have always liked your posts and thought we had similar opinions.
And thanks to you as well Upscale I will take that as a compliment.

for the interesting responses,,,,,,,,thomas