Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does it make sense to anybody else that at this time of the year you can buy normal females that weight around 1200 grams and just layed eggs and cost more than a female pastel? Granted come november I understand the price of females in the 1800-2500g range costing more as breeders have less females than they thought up to breeding size, but this time of the year for a female that may not put on the weight makes no sense to me at all. Yes I understand the laws of supply and demand but there is no surplus of pastel's at the price they are now. It is fairly easy to sell male pastel's at $350-$500 and if the females don't sell @ $750 he11 keep them. I know alot of breeders are doing this and that is why there are soooooo many adult females for sell, but shouldnt' the price reflect the large number of them available. And no I'm not looking to add anymore normal females to my collection and no I'm not trying to get people to "Hold their prices" and no I am not looking at hatching out 30 pastels next year and no I don't have any for sell at the moment. I'm just trying to figure out where the mind-set is with some people.

Another thing got me thinking, when somebody is selling baby snakes and they say "they have to go, I need room" what does that say for that breeder. To me a few things come to mind. First they have too many animals and cannot care for them properly. Second it says they produced too many animals and don't have the facility to house them all seperately, feed them all properly, and keep records as diligently as they need to. After all, how much room does a 12qt sterelite take up or even a hatchling rack to hold them all. If you know that by the end of the season you will not be able to house you babies, than don't breed all your females, it's that simple.

Ok enough of that rant, I welcome others opinions and I'm sure I'll get some bashing for this.
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Josh Hutto
J&K Reptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
1.0 Vanilla Ball Python (Gulf Coast)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
Alot of normal BP females (some not so normal)
2 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrier
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 columbian red-tail boa

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I agree with you on the "I need the room" thing, but not really on the females. To me a proven breeder normal female is worth more than a hatchling pastel. If the females you are talking about are ones that were imported gravid I agree with you but not on CB proven normals. It comes down to what can you do with a hatchling pastel do for you next year? Nothing. With the proven female normal you could produce a few of any codom.
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John Vandegrift

I agree to a point, but the thing that I don't understand is the 1100-1200 post egg laying that just layed, they more than likely won't put on enough weight for me to breed this year and thus have no benefit over a pastel hatchling. think about it, if the female pastel takes 2.5 years to breed, the normal would have produced only one more clutch for you of let's say 6 eggs from being bred to a black pastel of which 3 are black pastel at a retail of $2.5k each and you sell 2 and hold back 1 that's $5k. Now the pastel breeds at 2.5 years and produces a clutch of 6 eggs being bred to say a black pastel and gives you a couple pewters, you sell one at $5k which is well below market price right now and could reflect the market price for next year (just speculation on the current trends of price dropping). And now you have a breedable pastel female, a pewter or two that you held back and you are soooooo much better off than if you bought that normal breeder female.

ALL PRICES ARE SPECULATION ON ADVERTISED MARKET PRICES NOT ACTUAL SELLING PRICES.
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Josh Hutto
J&K Reptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
1.0 Vanilla Ball Python (Gulf Coast)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
Alot of normal BP females (some not so normal)
2 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrier
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 columbian red-tail boa

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I don't see why a 11-12 hundred gram snake could not put on enough weight to breed this season?
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John Vandegrift

I'm not talking about an 1100-1200g female that did not breed last year, I'm talking about the females that were 2500g before laying that clutch of eggs that weighed 1000g and they were off feed for 5 months, those are the 1100-1200g females that will have a very hard time building the fat stores and regaining enough calcium to produce viable eggs this comming season.
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Josh Hutto
J&K Reptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
1.0 Vanilla Ball Python (Gulf Coast)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
Alot of normal BP females (some not so normal)
2 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrier
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 columbian red-tail boa

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Exactly!! Females that are just laying now, how will they be back up if you start cooling in Oct? My girls all laid early, and are now back up to or over their prelay weight and everything for the next 2 months is extra stores or lengthening. I have friends that are still expecting clutches to be laid and I'm amazed if those girls are capable of laying in '06/'07 season again.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com

That's one good thing about being in S. Florida, it seems like the females go super late. I got my first clutch a week and a half ago from a female that lays late every year. She was 2900 pre-breeding weight and is down to 1700 now. This next season she might get the season off although she has eaten 4 med rats since laying. I just wish I had my vanilla or spider before I put her with my het pied male, but hey a few poss het pied females will be nice in a couple years, lol.
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Josh Hutto
J&K Reptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
1.0 Vanilla Ball Python (Gulf Coast)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
Alot of normal BP females (some not so normal)
2 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrier
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 columbian red-tail boa

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I'm sure the whole "I need room" excuse is just an excuse the breeder uses to sell the snake at a "lower" price while trying to avoid the flack from other breeders who will blame them for ruining the market and using unneccessary price undercutting. I'm sure the breeder has room, but he'd rather have hundreds of dollars than "another" snake. Its merely an excuse for the breeder to undercut anothers price. I mean if a snake sells for 600 instead of 750, its not hurting their pocket at all; they are not losing anything.

Thats my theory at least.

a drop of $150 is nothing, and I'd probably do it to make a sell to someone that has cash, but I've seen pastel females being sold for less than $400, that makes noooooooooo sense. It goes to show that this biz has alot of people that don't have the slightest idea of how to run a biz.
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Josh Hutto
J&K Reptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
1.0 Vanilla Ball Python (Gulf Coast)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
Alot of normal BP females (some not so normal)
2 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrier
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 columbian red-tail boa

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

this "biz"....

well, most people really haven't treated this as a business, and that's the problem. To most, it may be a hobby, a 'fun game', or even a sort of 'get rich quick scam', or atleast they thought... lol

name any point in time, 10 years ago, 10 days ago, or 10 days from now, and i'll name those who have handled this is an unprofessional manner, to say the least, and i'll also name those who are doing well REGARDLESS of the so called 'Market' and where it is...

This reminds me of when colleages and coworkers would get their annual reviews... most people don't put 110% into their work/business.
These guys wouldn't get raises, and would come back talking about, 'Oh yeah, it's the Economy - no one's getting raises'.
This is during the same time I was getting raises as big as half their salaries!!!!!

A business is not JUST importing millions of balls, or JUST hoarding females and mass-producing a morph because it did well the past year or two. A busines means going beyond the call of duty to succeed as a business; being profitable, protecting interests... Sometimes you have to change strategies, or direction, or product, or mission, or more, and many times it is a combination of many of these factors.

So now, keep in mind who most of these people are... those who post in this way, and 'ruin' it for some others. It is safe to say many of them are not professionals, not business people, and probably don't even have experience working for themselves, or much less in running a profitable business.

If you make a KILLING with XYZ morph today, and sell all your stock to hoard XYZ females and mass produce them in 2-3 years when that fad is gone, you are not too business savvy.
Many of us see this as a hobby first, as a true love, and we let emotions guide our decisions.

This is NOT coming down on you or anyone in particular, in anyway. I don't even know you or most others here.

Just keep that in mind... business and hobby are two different worlds..

One operates how it must to remain profitable, usually protecting prices, and more, creating a more stable market.

One is soley based on an individuals beliefs, morals, character, etc. Basically, a free for all...

Just my $.02

Joe
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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

you make several very good points and I agree with most, if not all of them. There are too many people that think of this as a get rich type scheme who, until the BP market had very little to no experience working with reptiles in general. The good thing about it is they realize this is work and they leave the community daily. Look how many adds you see in the classifieds about getting out of balls, these have to go today, or I need money for a different scheme, lol.

I know that by trying to keep back all the females it's not a good business move, but neither is putting them out at prices that are so much lower than what the general public is willing to pay. People need to realize that we are dealing with a product that most people can live without. These same people in general don't make six figure salaries and need to save up for that $1k snake. The problem is when these people that are undercutting the market by 1/2 just because they didn't think that when they produced a baby they may just have to take care of it for 6 months to a year before they were able to sell it.

A perfect example of a great business man is Peter Kahl. He produces ton's of pieds and if you look at his web page, he sells them, not by dropping his prices, but by being patient and allowing people the time to save money and to buy his product. He could have easily killed the pied market by publicly dropping his price to $2k (I'm not saying he dropped his price to this as I don't think he did) so he could sell out of animals, but he didn't and he still is selling out of animals.

Like you stated, a good business man is one that protects his/her investment as well as their customers, there are just too many people that aren't doing this, but again these are the people crying that the market is crap and they are the ones getting out, god bless them.
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Josh Hutto
J&K Reptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
1.0 Vanilla Ball Python (Gulf Coast)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
Alot of normal BP females (some not so normal)
2 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrier
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 columbian red-tail boa

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

If anyone were to hoard all females and mass produce a certain animal in THIS MARKET, it would be somewhat devestating, as we are seeing...

NOW, let me explain what THIS MARKET means to many people here....
All it means is Kingsnake !!! maybe another one or two popular sites!
That's what some of these or most of these people refer to when thinking or speaking market, why? because it's all they see or all they open themselves to.

Pete produces more Pieds a year than most of us produce snakes all together!!! but you know why he's not flooding the "MARKET" or lowering prices? because he's not only posting here on kingsnake or another forum.
He is a business man, and he realizes his "market" is waaaay broader than kingsnake, way larger, and a bit different.
He's had to make relations and reach out to these other people in these other markets, in other ways, to get that share.
I don't think i've ever seen Pete post one pied for sale on kingsnake, yet he sells out every year!!!!
THAT IS A BUSINESS MAN!!!

Birds of a feather flock together. Heard that before?
Think about it... if only 10% of the world was into reptiles (and that number is just to make things easy), and only 1% of that 10% were the type to frequent a forum like this, or even look online, than it's like we're all trying to push the same product on the same small group of people over and over again!!!
Of course things will slow down! Of course prices will drop! If it stays like that, I wouldn't be surprised to see morphs on sale for the same price as normals, and them not moving! While somewhere else, people could be selling those morphs for tens of thousands of dollars!

WE as a community are not treating this like a business, and not letting and encouraging it to grow like it should.
We are not focusing on educating the masses that fear snakes, or the children that don't yet have that fear.
We are not campaigning or marketing this to other areas, other fields, other sectors.
We are trying to keep this private and not structuring this in a way where we would have business men wanting to invest in this, bring companies public, standardize some of these animals or accessories or ideas, etc.
We are not trying to get the new people, the new blood.

I'm sure when we advertise for a show, we probably hit a local reptile club, pet stores, reptile magazines...

How about the local church, the library, boys and girl camps, boy/girl/cub scouts, supermarkets, etc.
How about advertising in magazines such as Home Care, Education, Business, Investing, Modern World, Luxury, Gear, etc...

We could run an ad in Martha Stewart's Living and include some nice, calm designer morph display animals in phenomenal display cages. Just an example.
You can tailor any ad in any magazine to appeal to that crowd or genre.

Do you see where i'm going?

Seems like we're keeping this too much of a small, tight nit community, and although that's good in some ways, it's not so good in others... unless we just wanted to sit around and trade back and forth to each other all day... which still could be fun and the most some people would want! but if we do expect to profit from this, we must go about it differently.

Again, nothing towards you, just some observations, thoughts...

Thanks for listening

Joe
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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

Do you think Pete really sells out on pieds every year?
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John Vandegrift

selling for $400 for pastel females etc. and don't have room for their babies are the same ones pocketing the cash and not claiming it to the IRS, or revenue services etc. Your right it doesn't hurt them because it is all pocket money to them. Now if the IRS started looking into all the adds here and checking to see who is claiming what would be funny as he11!
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com

LOL someone should make a phone call or send a letter, I'd laugh my a$$ off to see some of these people get busted for tax fraud. I haven't sold the first snake and have been building up inventory so I have no worries, but I bet that person who put his male pastel to 10 females and got 5 clutches of eggs would, lol.
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Josh Hutto
J&K Reptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
1.0 Vanilla Ball Python (Gulf Coast)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
Alot of normal BP females (some not so normal)
2 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrier
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 columbian red-tail boa

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

LOL - if the IRS started auditing ball breeders - it wouldn't be the little guys they go after - be thankful they haven't taken notice - or there might be a few empty tables at Daytona next year.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 Lizards of unknown origin

I think the big breeders, those that do this full time are very diligent on their record keeping and reporting. I will be reporting everything I earn as I've been in trouble with the IRS and have no desire to repeat, lol. When they say you have to file every year they mean it, not every 3 years, lol. It's funny the things you do when you are young.
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Josh Hutto
J&K Reptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
1.0 Vanilla Ball Python (Gulf Coast)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
Alot of normal BP females (some not so normal)
2 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrier
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 columbian red-tail boa

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Agreed, we run a business already (martial arts school) and have to have an accountant and every single penny has to be accounted for. Any little discrepency in income from what is claimed to what is taken in is huge trouble. It is the little guys that are clearing an extra 10K and think no one will notice that would be in a world of trouble.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com

The IRS isn't going to spend 10K to recover 5K...
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

The big guys are actual businesses and have to claim their taxes and income and expenses. The smart ones know how to make money the right way by maximizing their deductions and have accountants that help them to earn the least while still having a high net worth.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com

On the first topic, I think so many normal females are up for grabs because more people are swapping out their normals for pastels that are going to be up to size the coming year. Example their 3 pastel females from '04 are going to be big enough this year to breed so sell off 2 or 3 of last years breeder females, since they may not go this coming year anyway, but people will pay well for them since they are proven breeders.

Second issue, I agree whole heartedly!! If you can't properly care for the babies you produced then don't breed them!! Once I have eggs in the incubator I make sure I have room for all the babies when they come out and I have to ensure I have room for all the juvies who are going to be moving into adult enclosures. Why is that a difficult concept? Ensure you have the food, time, space, resources to care for any offspring you are going to produce. People just think they are going to be sold as soon as they come out of the egg? Foolish to not plan for any situation.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com

There are very few business like the Ball Python business, where the only reason someone buys a snake from you is to breed it and sell the offspring, thus, your customer instantly becomes your competitor.

I would say roughly 10% of the Ball Python sellers count on the Ball sales as their only revenue. For me, I am looking to make enough money to go on a nice vacation each year with my wife, to buy a Sunday driver Maserati, to pay off credit cards...I do not count on the snakes for my living, so, if someone comes to me with a wad of cash, and is willing to give me that wad of cash, say enough for Cook Islands week long cruise, for a snake, chances are, I will take it. Now, am I going to sell an Albino for $300? Of course not, but will I take $4K for a snake that has a market value of $7K? Hell yeah! Why, because someone else will if I do not, that $7K snake could drop to $4K anyway, by the time I sell it, and lets not forget, snakes are animals, and animals can up and die for no reason at all. Besides, who makes the market price? Most prices are set by the bigger breeders, and we small time breeders try to stay somewhere in the ballpark. BUT, the market price is not what the big breeders post as the price, BUT RATHER WHAT EACH INDIVIDUAL CAN SELL IT FOR. Our customers set the price.

I knew a guy who turned down a new Corvette for a male Spider. That is right, a guy offered a guy I know a 10,000 mile, newer Corvette for a Spider Ball male, and he did not take it. I would have taken it and laughed my @$$ off every Sunday while driving down the Pacific Coast Highway with the windows down listening to the tunes and ocean.

I think this business has the full time breeders, the big full time breeders, the small time breeders like myself, and then the brokers/breeders. Everyone has a different agenda, and should be allowed to pursue that agenda and not be torn into by the other breeders. It seems like the small time breeder who wants to make a few bucks, have some fun, and not hold onto all their babies for a year, and instead sell for what THEY think the snake is worth now, is getting looked down upon by the breeders who need to make money to pay their bills. That is just not right!