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I can’t quite buy into this definition. The same guys who are advancing this would call a drop dead gorgeous, line bred to the nth degree, brooks kings with impeccable locality data, pure when it is anything but natural. True, nature has the capacity to produce gems like those we see coming from long term projects but it just doesn’t do it with anywhere near the frequency. Pure in my estimation can only mean that all stock within the line is perfectly documented to have originated from a specific and defined locality or population. Note that this in no way speaks to genotype down to the sub-specific level.

As an example:
Assuming the documentation is correct (and I’m not saying it isn’t), the south GA kings we are all so fond of, are pure king snakes from South GA but they are NOT pure easterns as eastern kings have been described. Given the example’s phenotype and the original localities proximity to goini’s range, reason would dictate that there is some distinct non–eastern influence at work. Is this animal pure? In one very real sense yes, in another very real sense, no. Either way you slice is it, they are still one of the coolest lines to come along in some time.

The same guys who are advancing this would call a drop dead gorgeous, line bred to the nth degree, brooks kings with impeccable locality data, pure when it is anything but natural. True, nature has the capacity to produce gems like those we see coming from long term projects but it just doesn’t do it with anywhere near the frequency.

What it looks like doesn't matter to me. All that matters to me is that, if locale is claimed, every WC ancestor was caught at the locale.

Personally I don't think locale is that big of a deal - it results in higher priced snakes that are more likely to be inbred, and thus more likely for a recessive genetic defect to surface.

I suppose some locale snakes that is less of an issue with, like the GBK's collected from those road cut areas that are popular, but :shrug: - I'd rather pay less for a generic.
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Purity is a ridiculous notion to mask bigotry and intolerance. The S Ga Kings are perfectly described by calling them S Ga Kings! Why do they have to be Easterns? “Eastern” means black and white classic “chain” king. Every little local variation deserves it’s own little nick name so we all know exactly what you are talking about. Forget the latin names and pseudo-science. Maybe they have some Goini influence in them. There must be some reason they warrant distinction from the classic Eastern. So call them S Ga Kings and who cares. That is a naturally occurring pattern anomaly. It deserves recognition from the hobby. Take your pick- extra wide white chain king, S GA king, Guido Chain King, Goini/Chain king, Better-than-eastern chain king. Whatever you call it, those types are distinct and pretty cool looking kingsnakes.

Some distinctions though are just a gene or three.

Striped cal kings - they certainly only minimally differ from banded cal kings genetically, even though they look quite different - and are naturally occuring.

Our subspecies designation certainly is not perfect.
That's why in some cases, preserving locale information is important.

It seems that quite a few subspecies have changed due to taxonomy in the last 20 years. It seems, for example, that the San Bernadino Alligator Lizard is no longer its own subspecies - I'm not sure if it got swallowed by California or San Diego, but I use to summer in San Bernadino and they look nothing like San Diego or California - but looks aren't everything I guess.

I was also recently reading about Red Legged Frogs - my favorite. It seems that even though northern and california red legged frogs are almost visually identical, that the taxonomy places the norther closer to the cascade frog. Norther red legged integrates with both in the wild.

Could the northern actually be the result of hybrid between California red legged and cascade - that kept appearance of california but closer taxonomy of cascade frog? Or did the cascade frog evolve from the northern subspecies, and appearance changed more than taxonomy?

Hell if I know. All I know is I just wish there was a way to get rid of those stupid american bullfrogs that have eliminated so many breeding populations of other Rana frogs west of the rockies. Getting rid of all the pond sliders that seem to be taking over remaining western pond turtle territory would also be nice. Almost makes me want to lobby against Pond Sliders in pet stores - they get too big for most keepers, so they let them go, and sometimes they survive to breed.
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

In life, "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch".

In nature There Ain't No Such Thing As "pure".

.999999 24K Gold? Nope - has .000001 % silver in it - and always will have some, no matter how refined.

Diamond the "Purest Substance Known To Man"? Hardly - always has inclusions, even lab created.

Snakes Pure? Not just no, but H3LL NO! Every single one has different DNA. Not a single one, anywhere is "pure".

Point is, in nature there is always variation. Purity has no meaning to DNA. If it weren't for the little variations - the impurities - there would be no Easterns, Goinis, Colubrids, Squmates, Tetrapods, Vertabrates, etc. Just inanimate lumps of cold matter.

We, and the snakes we all love, simply would never exist in a pure universe.

Nature? Red of Tooth and Claw? We are part of nature. Everything we do is part of nature. We are the Grand Experiment - the device designed by nature to answer the question: "Is Intelligence A Pro-survival Trait?". News Flash: The Jury's still out. Dinosaurs ruled the world for 100 million years. We got a long, long, long, long, loong way to go before we're even in their leauge.

What about "Sematics"?

Here's a quote from Alice in Wonderland:
Humpty Dumpty: When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.
Alice: The question is, whether you can make words mean so many different things.
Humpty Dumpty: The question is: which is to be master - that's all.
---Lewis Carroll.

"Pure and Natural". Kind of reminds me of a water filter commercial.

Cheers,

John D.

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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"

Tony D
off topic....... Did you go to Marist college in the early 80's.

No I attended St. Leo in FL. Still a liberal arts institution.

Another monkey wrench - at least as far as they look is concerned - I've heard that with many species, what they look like at the "edge of range" can be quite a bit different.

IE the the farthest a species can be found in an particular direction, they often look different even if it is not an integrade/hybrid.

I've never seen it myself, just read about it - and I don't know what causes it. Maybe someone here has experienced it and/or has an explanation.

It would seem that maybe brooksi fits that phenomena - being the southern range of the Florida subspecies.
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

...is that a species or subspecies at one end of its range may look different from how it looks at the other end of its range.

((( i agree 100% w/your post tony the Ga. kings are not Lgg as described and considering range of the other ssp. it stands to reason there is allot of natural intergradation with getula from that area with not only goini,but floridana as well, but imho those same phenotypes can be acheived with captive breedings. its funny how some beleive if its done in nature its pure but if its done in captivity its a hybrid,,go figure,,,,,,
great post,,,,,,,,,thomas davis)))

So you're 100% sure the Ga. Kings are not Lgg???? Then what are they? Lampropeltis whatever you wanna nameous??? I am not the expert here, but going by all the literature that's out there I would have to disagree with you. EVERY book on kingsnakes that I have seen says they are.
Some few individuals DO display different characteristics within a given population so yes, I won't doubt that there could be some influence of other subspecies at work there, but not enough to warrant a reclassification. That's because a great majority of Eastern kings (even in South Georgia) DO have thin bands. I have lived in S. georgia for many years and found hundreds of Eastern kings in the field, with at least 90% or more having regular thin bands and NO speckling. . .
In your honest opinion you can achieve those ( i assume, wide banded, with no light scales in the dark areas) phenotypes with captive breedings? Maybe you can,but I don't think any of us will be around that long,lol! Of course there IS one way you could: You would have to drive south and get you some of those S. GA. specimens or buy you some. But i don't think you can create your own so easily . . . No hard feelings towards anyone - just chiming in.
Ok, I disagreed with someone. Hopefully that won't kill this thread???

Zee
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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

> Some few individuals DO display different characteristics within
> a given population so yes, I won't doubt that there could be some
> influence of other subspecies at work there, but not enough to
> warrant a reclassification.

I have read that it is not uncommon for edge of range herps that are not integrades to look different than "typical".

Is that part of georgia edge of range?
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Zee what exactly is your point! Your asking these questions like we disagree but I gotta tell you that even after rereading your post several times for the life of me I can't find the disagreement! More to the fact you seem to support the points I'm trying to make.

nope never lived in ga. but then we can just agree to disagree(cant we) i beleive its plain to see in the wide banded orange individuals call it a phenotype if ya like but i beleive its intergradation and i dont beleive it would take a lifetime to proove out in captivity, imho its being and has been done for quite sometime by several breeders, i also beleive some knowingly do this and then lie about it! which is really sad;(
now i wonder if this post will be deleted??????

,,,,,,,,thomas

I guess you revisited an important point: Dishonest breeders! That in itself opens up a whole can of worms. But you're right, what if someone has been working with them and misreperesented them? That makes things more complicated. But having lived in Georgia and seen pics of the animals Kevin Enge originally found (which started the Will Still line), I wanted to check for myself and see what was out there in those counties and that part of the state. Based on what I've seen in my own field observations everything checks out ok, and there are the occasional, but rare wide banded and even partially speckled individuals out there. (Which is why I like them so much - the possibilty of variation within this group)
I do have some questions about that wide banded, orange individual that was supposedly hatched from a WC South Carolina animal though, because that paopulation is a looooong way from the ANF!

Zee
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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

Hi Tony,

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that the S. GA getula (at least the line that I am working with) likely have some distinct, natural influences from the other regional getula, be it goini or some really long ago floridana influence. I don't think that anyone who has seen the F2s & F3s could dispute that. Line breeding has obviously brought out some very special characteristics in this lineage. Are they the same as NJ, Maryland, or Carolina easterns...hell no, but that is part of the reason that they are so appealing to me and so many others. They are different, some of them are very different, and whatever it is in their history that caused them to be different, I am grateful for.

However, I also consider them to be eastern kings like all of the other easterns in my collection, including my Outer Banks. I consider them to be easterns just like I recognize the awesome, semi speckled N. Fla. varieties that are occasionally posted here to be easterns. There is no denying that they are different, but each of the varieties that I keep are a little bit different and I'm grateful for that. If they were the same, their would be little reason for keeping them all.

I consciously try to avoid that term (you know the one) these days specifically for the reasons that Frank stated so well. The day I began line breeding for more white and more red, thinner chains and thicker chains, more speckling (OBKs), albinism and striping in my easterns, they took a turn away from the animals that their wild ancestors were (you know the really "pure" ones) and I'm ok with that.

As you know, we are not breeding these things for re-introduction programs, so continuing to breed for the "wild" phenotype became less of a concern (for me anyway). Most of the wild NJs that I have seen are definately not black and snow white, but that is what I (and others) like, so that is what I bred for in my NJ group. Most of the wild GAs that I have seen are not clean orange and black (although some are, with wide chains), but I wanted just that (and so did others), so that is what I bred for in my group. Most wild Outer Banks that I have seen are not 100% speckled, but...well you know the story.

I realize that I'm not preaching anything that you don't already know here, but I get the feeling that some here are way too quick to slap this label or that lable on animals that they have little understanding about, and some others here just like to start trouble. So, you are all certainly free to have your own opinions, and thank goodness for that, but I will continue to describe these S. GA easterns as just that..easterns. They may have a little of this or a little of that in their wild ancestory because of the region that they come from (the GA getula melting pot), but I think that just makes them a special captive lineage that deserves all of the attention that they are getting. Thanks for an interesting thread.

Will

Will it wasn't my intention to impune your animals. I think they are absolutely awesome, youve done a fantastic job with them and I don't have a problem calling them easterns either. I was just using them as an example of why I don't buy that pure equals natural. I could just have easily used flame Florida kings, or hypo brooks kings.

Good post Will, and GREAT looKing easterns!
Todd Hughes