Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey gang,

This is a VERY convertraversial topic among us cham keepers but I think it is one that i still need to udnerstand....

Lately, i have ebcame more interested in montane chameleons....you know Jacksons, Rudis, Quadriconis, etc.. See i live in San Diego, a VERY dry hot area. It would be almost impossible for me to be able to keep the humidity right for them. If kept at our -50% humidity they would get nasty shedding problems which would lead to sores an irritations....

Now i have done some looking into on glass cages. Ventilation isnt the main reason why they are bad for chams. The reflection that the cham see's cause the stress. But i have an idea, which could work and i am willing to do....Paint the outside portion of the glass. This would almost totally ELIMINATE the stressful reflection...Do you guys think it would work?

Also, height is a problem...Many glass cages are just too shallow. Easy solution though, just flip it on its side!that will increase the height!

Another thing chams need is ventilation (dur!). A screen top would not do the job, so i thought maybe i could use small fans to circulate air in to the cage. This should work, but i am wondering of some of the flaws in the idea, because if it was really that simple, more ppl would use glass tanks!

Please throw in your imput, ideas, and reasons as to why this would work or be a total failure. I find that too much literature on chams states "dont use glass cages," so simply put and stupid.

Thanks in advance, and lets try to keep this topic calm, no aggressive posts "you idiot what are you thinking!" none of that please!
-----
Eric

I fight for the unconventional
My right, and its unconditional
I can only, be as real as i can
The disadvantage is
I never knew the plan
This isnt the way just to be a martyr
I cant, walk alone any longer
I fight, for the ones that cant fight
And if I lose, at least I tried....
(Slipknotulse of the Maggots)

I live in Las Vegas and I promise its hotter and drier here! I keep my Jacksons in screen cages inside. I mist twice a week and drip every other day. I'm almost to F3 status with them and they're thriving. Personally, as far as Jackson's are concerned, if kept cooler (high 70s) ambient humidity is not as big an issue as long as proper hydration is kept up.

I've also "decided" that the big mistake people make w/newborns is keeping them TOO wet. They definitely need time to "dry out". I cut back mistings on my babies to one brief session 1 hour after lights on and one hour before lights out. I've lost 2 out of the last 27 babies and they were weak from the get go.

Bill

This is one of my cage units...

Post constrction

In the yard.

Complete with a mister.
-----
CANADIAN SILKWORMS

Sorry, I clicked back and lost some of my post. The point of the post was to explain, there are much better materials to use than glass tanks if you are wanting solid sided caging. Besides, glass doesn't dissapate heat, may cause reflections, is easily stained, does not provid visual boundries, the list of faults go on.

The cages shown were built with corrugated white plastic. That entire 6' unit weighs... I don't know 50 pounds.
-----
CANADIAN SILKWORMS

Did you make those cages? Could you give me instructions or plans if you have the time?

Thanks
-----
Eric

I fight for the unconventional
My right, and its unconditional
I can only, be as real as i can
The disadvantage is
I never knew the plan
This isnt the way just to be a martyr
I cant, walk alone any longer
I fight, for the ones that cant fight
And if I lose, at least I tried....
(Slipknotulse of the Maggots)

Thanks Eric. I did make them, and I'm sorry, I don't have any plans anymore. My drawings were burned in the big fire of 06. Heh, but really I wouldn't know where to start to guide you with instructions.

All I have are a few photos from the later part of constuction. Nothing much that would really help explain how to make it. Each cage in the unit is 18x18x36". I use his size for female pardalis.

-----
CANADIAN SILKWORMS

LOL I HAD to do that...
I think it's a combination of all of the negative factors that you mentioned and the fact that there is really one 1 positive (and that is humidity). I have found with my water dragons and, since I'm relatively new to chameleons, the same has appeared to be true, that "water" events need to be followed by "dry" periods. With all the sides of a glass tank solid, it is difficult to provide air flow. Tempered glass can't be modified to provide "air holes" so you have no opportunity to provide cross ventilation. My little pygmy female lives in a tank (which is the recommended housing) but I have a ceiling fan running 24/7 in that room to provide some ventilation. My water dragon enclosures are acrylic, but I have put hardware cloth in select areas to provide ventilation and have a fan on a timer that ventilates for an hour after a "rain" event. I really likes Will's combination cages. I have a wooden cham cage with a front screen door and screening in the top which worked well for me, but the bottom got wet and I've been redoing it to water proof it. I did find that I needed to provide something on the inside walls for my cham to use to climb and I stapled gutter guard on the inside walls. Diane
-----

dianedfisher@yahoo.com

My 3 CWD-Avanyu, Tripod and Drago
Valentino, Veiled Chameleon
Chyam, Nosy Be Panther Chameleon

Where in san diego do you live? I live in san diego and enjoy humidity of up to 80%. I keep my C.Rudis and Fischers in free range habitats. I can skip misting all together some days because it is so humid. I rarely even see my chams drinking. THe weather here is perfect for montane species, screen cages are the best. A fan inside the cage would dry it out faster than you could keep it humid. I have to put mine outside at night because i dont get enough of a temp drop inside. I think if you take another look you will see that you dont need a whole lot to make this work. all of mine are imports and have thrived- havent lost a single one. (with exception to a hatchling rudis)

Well manog, i live inland, in Poway. It has never been below 80 here this summer (no not at night). So keeping chams outside is nasty and hard without the use of lots of shade and fans! And what stinks most of all is that i have to keep my animals in my garage. Luckily i have an AC unit in there because it used to be a room for my grandparents. So it can be chilled to 75 degrees. Mom doesnt like the idea of having ANY lizards in the house, so this is all i can do!

See the thing is guys, i have lots of spare glass cages i would like to put to use. Im trying to be conservative here. I really think that if i try i can put them to a good use.

Do you guys have any ideas on how i could cut down on reflection or should i just forget this idea and go to a sort of contained free range?

The contained free range idea is having 1 or 2 (maybe 3) trees in like a tall container that surrounds the bottom so the chams cant get out. But they dont have walls around them. Good idea or bad?

Thanks for the posts
-----
Eric

I fight for the unconventional
My right, and its unconditional
I can only, be as real as i can
The disadvantage is
I never knew the plan
This isnt the way just to be a martyr
I cant, walk alone any longer
I fight, for the ones that cant fight
And if I lose, at least I tried....
(Slipknotulse of the Maggots)

Glass cages are not worth it for a number of reasons.

First of all, they're heavy, hard to move, difficult to work with, small, and, in side mounted tanks (been there done that)the glass absorbs UVB radiation.

the reflections aren't usually an issue - they are only an issue when the room outside of the tank is dark. If it's lighted as well, reflections are a minimum.

THE issue is transparancy, and there is no way around that in a small tank. They will try to get through, not recognizing the barrier - THIS is where stress comes from, if it comes form anyplace at all! They recognize plastic screen, and everything else that's not clear, as a barrier, and they dont' try to go through it.

They are just too much of a pain to be worth it.

Here is a much better alternative. Get a screen cage, and some plastic dropcloth from the hardware store (the kind we were supposed to use duct tape to seal our homes from chemical/biological attacks). Attach that to the inside or outside of the screen cage - ou can adjust the ventilation wiht that, and the plastic lets light in, but not enough to make it clear - they usualyl can't even see one another through it.

Tanks CAN work - but they're not worth it, unless you have a very big tank.

Oh, and painting the glass will just make it MORE reflective.

I use the free range set-up for my chams. You have to use large trees for them to feel content with their set-up. I use a 6-7ft ficus for just one of my fishers. A smaller species like rudis might be able handle like a 3ft tree. I made the mistake of using a small bush in a glass pot and it worked for like a day. My fischer still roams the house every so often. He jumps the last 3 ft of pot!!!!! If you use the free range set up be prepared for escapee's and go with a small species like taveta two horn, rudis, etc.

Here in Europe,

the majority of chameleons is kept in Glass cages-or wooden cages with glass front. Only for outdoor cages, the full screen version is the most common enclosure.
Why we do that?
Well, as you mentioned, its easier to maintain proper humiditiy and temps -and more important, gradients thereof- in a glass cage.
Also its easy to control ventilation by varying the size of the screened parts.
For non montane chams, the most widely used variant has a fully screened top and smaller screened areas in the lower parts of the tank to allow a continuous thermal convection driven airflow through the cage.
For montane species this also works well, but some people prefer cages for qwhich in addition to the top, one side is completely screened.
Refelction is not much of an issue.
Forst, mostr chams in fact do learn to ignore that rather quickly, second we do normally only leave the front door uncovered and the rest of the walls is covered with Bark or fake rock backwalls. For wood/melanine tanks, there is anyway just one glass wall.
I know that this is a very controversial topid in the US, but its a fact that european herpers do use glass tanks ever since and still have remarkable success.
For germans, dutch, dansih and the like, the local climate also matters a lot. Herp rooms have to be heated for many months which is detrimental to overall relative humidity and makes use of screened cages difficult.
Even if you manage to reach desired temps and humidity levels in there, its almost impossible to provide temp and humiditiy gradients or to providfe differetn climates for individual screen tanks in the same room.
With glass (or wood) tanks, that is easy.

Ci@o

Ingo

See i knew that someone out there would have sucess with using a glass tank!

See im on a budget now and i have a bunch of old aquariums that im thinking of putting a good use to. Why not for chams?

Would you mind posting some pics of your set ups maybe? I love how you Europeans set up such stunning enclosures.

Thanks or your time and input
-----
Eric

I fight for the unconventional
My right, and its unconditional
I can only, be as real as i can
The disadvantage is
I never knew the plan
This isnt the way just to be a martyr
I cant, walk alone any longer
I fight, for the ones that cant fight
And if I lose, at least I tried....
(Slipknotulse of the Maggots)

I live in Canada and like the Europeans, use glass cages with screen lids or glass cages with screen fronts and lids and I have no problem with it. My male and female veileds (for example)live to be over 6 years old in them...BUT you live in California and the climate is hotter there. I wouldn't be using them unless I had airconditioning.

Turning them on end will make them more of a heat trap too...at least with screen lids there is some circulation.

Just my two cents worth...

kinyonga, so when do I get invited to the great chameleon house? You're welcome to mine anytime, in Burlington BTW. Private tours and such.
-----
CANADIAN SILKWORMS

Great chameleon house?

We'll talk about it soon. My house is in a state due to major water damage from the storms last week.

Esh, Hopefully it wount be too costly.

Yes the great chameleon Home. Any home that has had parsons and other rarities is great. Besides I miss those montanes you bought, none are left at Grants.

Well, you know how to contact me.
-----
CANADIAN SILKWORMS

Ingo, are you keeping/breeding any chameleons?

Painting the outside of the glass won't solve a reflection problem. The glass surface on the INSIDE will still reflect light from the cage top, and this is what creates an image if the angle is right. I have used part glass part screen cages in the past with some success, but I found I had to really watch the chams to see if they were reacting to images. Sometimes they did and sometimes they didn't. To interrupt the image on the inside of the cage you would need quite a bit of texture like fiberglass window screen. But, then your view of the cham is pretty poor. Also remember that some chams will pace back and forth along the glass trying to get out. They don't understand why they can't go through it to the room outside. I had a veiled and a verrucosus who got very stressed from pacing.

You can provide humidity in a screen cage. I hang semi-clear plastic sheeting on the back and sides to help hold in moisture, even part of the front if needed. With a fogger or mister cycling on a timer and lots of foliage you can create the humidity you want. Your bigger problem will be cool night temps unless you run an AC. And, that AC will dry out the air in the room.

A glass enclosure big enough for a larger cham will be super heavy. Plexiglass will scratch really easily.

Wow this has been a great learning experience for me! And thanks to Will Hayward, i have found a cheap way of housing chams that also keeps in humidity. A TRASH CAN! As ghetto as it sounds i think its going to work well!

Thanks again room
-----
Eric

I fight for the unconventional
My right, and its unconditional
I can only, be as real as i can
The disadvantage is
I never knew the plan
This isnt the way just to be a martyr
I cant, walk alone any longer
I fight, for the ones that cant fight
And if I lose, at least I tried....
(Slipknotulse of the Maggots)