Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A certain snake in my area, Ophiophagus hannah, is among the most solitary of all species of snakes. As their genus name ‘Ophiophagus’ suggests, they are snake eaters that will even eat their own species. The only time that multiple specimens are found together is during the mating season. Males will occasionally stay in the area of the female’s nest until hatching; during this time there has been no record of any interaction between the male and female.

What does this have to do with monitors? Ophiophagus hannah engages in ritual combat and NO ONE considers this reptile as social. Hmmmm. I could put together a quite impressive list of reptiles and other animals that engage in ritual combat, none of which are social.

There are some other things for FR to consider:
1. So by your definition, animals that have real 'to the death' combat (chimpanzees and humans) are not social?
2. Yet again, you are contradicting yourself as you always do. If monitors pair bonded, there would be no reason for ritual combat during the mating season.

The major problem with people like you is that you spread false information about subjects that require the knowledge of word definitions when you have absolutely no idea of what these words mean. What entertains me and anyone else who truly knows what these words mean is your redefining of these words, such as social and pair bonding, as the latest attempt by you to redefine terms that have been around much longer than you or I have been.

I know, I know; you have bred THOUSANDS of monitors over MULTIPLE generations, but this topic is not about that. Nor does it have anything to do with what we have discussed in the past. No one questions that. What is in question is your misconceptions wild monitor behaviours, your inability to understand the simplest definitions, and last but not least, your credibility.

Cheers,
Michael

P.S. Many here in this part of the world had a good laugh concerning your statement about Water Monitors not wanting to be wet. It is a shame that something so humourous had to be deleted.

I am very surprised that you find king cobras asocial, iv kept an adult pair together for 6 years, and every time the female nested the male protected here like crazy, none of them ever eat or even tried the babies. I would say kings are very social when in pairs.

As for ritual combat I don’t believe its an act of none aggression, as the victor often tries to kill the other (especially captives) also my observation indicates that ritualise combat only occurs between similar sized monitors, as large males go strait for the smaller monitors without any hiss and puff or any threat display whatsoever.

On a personal note I have seen an adult pair of my Nil’s go thru all the ritual and combat, this lasted intermittently until the female was receptive to copulation. This indicates that ritualised combat is not restricted to males. There’s report of similar combat in wild lace monitor (have photos).

Next I don’t understand why you attack FR on his comments, its clear to me that he wanted other keepers view on ritual combats, no need to stir the pot on this.
And regarding the comment about monitors not wanting to be wet, sorry but its true!

All water monitor species uses water as a tool, it can be to cool down or hunt or avoid predation. To us human keepers this may seem cool and dandy, but to a monitor it’s a matter of life and death, every time they enter water its potentially dangerous, monitors are eaten by fish, turtles, crocodiles, eels, octopus and many water birds, only when they are adults do the risk get lower, one more reason monitors prefer to avoid water if possible is to keep there metabolism going. Its in this perspective that I agree with FR that water monitors prefer a humid but dry cage.

Michael I tot you stayed away from these forums! What’s a matter with you?
I will be in Japan next month hopefully I can visit your shop.

Rgds

In your experience, we are talking about in captive conditions where the specimens are forced together. There is one of two choices. They are going to get along or kill each other (just like with monitors) when forced into this situation. Neither hangs out with each other by choice.

The largest collective collection of Ophiophagus hannah (ca. 250 specimens on my last visit) is in Kok Sa Nga, Khon Kaen Province, Thailand. The people of this village keep them separate (they are kept as housepets). They have probably seen this species in the field more and have more experience with the species than anyone. Anyone who has witnessed these people working with these snakes will agree their knowledge of wild and captive King Cobras is without equal. I have received a wealth of knowledge from these people about this species on my visits. They do not find them together in the field.

Concerning Varanus salvator salvator, if you dig into the information concerning their natural history (not captive history) you will see that their burrows, in the areas they can dig them, are often half filled with water. Those are not just my observations, others. The common person that has no interest in these animals knows that much in this part of the world. As far as captive conditions go, I agree now, as I did in the past, it would be better to keep them drier with high humidity with swimming facilities (that is how I keep most of mine).

Sorry, I was in living in Japan a few years ago, but have since moved to my permanent home in Thailand.

Cheers,
Michael

I often use the term naive, and that is often taken in an offensive way. But please its not meant to be offensive, it simply means the subject has not acquired the knowledge of concern(in this case, what we are talking about, monitors)

That you look for examples in such a distant way, tells me of your naivity. For instance, I have heard monitors compared to polar bears, king cobras, canadian gardersnakes, etc etc. Yet I do not understand why you do not compare them to whales and lemmings and ants and Yaks, and lots of other animals you really could compare them to. Why do you pick extremes to oppose. Try something closer, then a simple mind like mine can understand. In other words, on this point, I could care less what cobras do. In my mind, I think you and those folks simply do not understand cobras, but hey, you could be right about them. They are not monitors and they do not even represent, other cobras.

You see, I could compare them to Iguanas, or swifts, or agamids, or tegus, or something closer. But hey, those things are known to be social in a reptilian way. And are known to have close behavioral ties to members in their territories. hmmmmmmm that is the question isn't it. What are the behavioral ties to monitors in their own areas? Do they attract(social) or do they repell(anti-social)? That you do not understand this does not make you ignorant, it makes you naive. Look it up sir.

About your wet burrows. How simple are you? You know darn well thats in the rainy season(wet, wet conditions). You also know its the time collecters and You go to see monitors as they are "out" more then in other seasons. Just saying that leads to a simple idea, they are out more because their burrows are wet and unsuitable and need to dry off. Dang, this is easy.

As you side with science, TEST IT. Keep captive monitors WET and in another cage, keep them dry. Use standard varanid husbandry in all other areas and see what the results are. Sir, TEST IT! Remember we are not testing captive husbandry, we are testing WET vs. Dry. (and as Jobi mentions, humid is required by all monitors) I hope you do not confuse wet with humid. As they are totally seperate things.

Both must have drinking water, both must have proper temps and food. The only variable is a wet cage vs. a dry cage. Hmmmmmmmmm I know I know, teacher pick me, I know the answer. hahahahahahaha Please mike, try to make this fun.

So you had/have a shop???????? hehehehehehehe how funny Cheers

I'd like to address jobi's comment about avoiding water because it will affect metabolism. Please comment mrcota.

"one more reason monitors prefer to avoid water if possible is to keep there metabolism going."

Going where? If it's so stinking hot there, the water is like bath water. If anything, it is thermoregulating, but not like other monitors might. If it's true a Water's working body temp is lower than other monitors, than it's keeping it's temperature in a certain range. There is more to metabolism than temperature (like food/fuel). If we jump to a captive monitor, their water might be on the cool side and they do slow down when soaking in their water tub.

Kakes

In my opinion, Salvators can keep higher Body temps because they have a efficient method to lower max temps. The water, While indeed your water may not be cold, its much much cooler then the tree branches and other sun exposed surfaces, which is hotter then the air. Please test these things.

ALso understand

Also, larger massed monitors behavior is directly based on the ability to control deep body temps. That is, most desert species are not on the surface for extented periods durning warmer temps. But smaller members of their same species are. This is because of their ability to loss energy. Smaller individuals can loss temps quickly, so they can gain it for longer periods without overheating.

For instance, in Australia, you have goulds complex and a simialr sized relative, the mertens monitors. You will see large adults of both. But with the goulds they will be out mainly in the early mourning and late afternoon, Where as, the large mertens are out all day(they do have water to control mass temps) If large mertens are not around suitable water(dried up) they do down in the ground and stay there, yet smaller mertens can still be found out, in other moist conditions, like thich foliage and such. As are smaller goulds. Remember, these are examples and all examples can be counterdicted. They of use to understand, not to argue.

If you watch how these adults behave, you will start to understand why they do what they do. To behave, includes all activities like feeding, hunting, gestating ovum or eggs. All require its own set of rules and associated behaviors. Cheers

They are thermoregulating and differently than desert type monitors. They go into the warm water and then go bask. As they are drying off- they are cooling off.
If it's the rainy season, they do this often. If it's not the rainy season, they may continue to do this, but the burrows are more dry and they can maintain in them, too.

"one more reason monitors prefer to avoid water if possible is to keep there metabolism going."

So I would think Waters would not avoid water.

Aside from the above thoughts. My experience with waters, they like to put their legs back and slide over mud. Not like a peguin. They are not going for distance. If the cage gets too wet (for me), I'll leave the water dish/tub out for a day. They will slide as if to go in the water dish, but it's not there. Or they will slide into a sleeping spot for the night. They have many options at once and sometime not in the same combination. I can have a dry/wet open spot, dry/wet covered spot, "the above" under a basking bulb or at the low end of the range. Some times they choose the cool mud to sleep on, the water tub, under the warmed board, in a burrow away from the heat. I don't try to duplicate nature, but I think Waters love water as part of their enviroment. I would never set one up like a red ear slider. But because it would like to act like a turtle sometimes, it really hard work to make water a part of it's enviroment.

Throughout most of there range salvator are subjected to significant NTL drops, the water at the entrance of there borrows act as a buffer (isolation) from temperatures drops.
This is also known about many other reptiles and mammals.

As Gaulk demonstrated in the Philippines journal of science, when water temps are high water monitors use this to there advantage, they can soak to thermoregulate or wet themselves and bask allowing the wind to cool them down.

All this brings us back to water is a tool, captive monitors of all species can and probably should? Be kept with only drinking water. This would avoid many casualties.

As for me I much prefer to provide a large water section, but then again I work hard on keeping water clean.

rgds

You are confusing. You present info to support water, but then you say you should keep it away except for drinking?? You call water a tool, but you would take it a way. Do you keep your monitors on any type of dirt? Maybe you should take that away, too. It's just a tool??
Ahh, maybe you are talking about drowning in the water bowl like some have said on this forum.

"All this brings us back to water is a tool, captive monitors of all species can and probably should? Be kept with only drinking water. This would avoid many casualties. "

To put this to rest. I don't believe in avoiding water with some types of healthy monitors. I would never set up a desert monitor like a turtle. Accidents happen, but I don't think taking water away will stop a casualty waiting to happen.

I agree sometime I am confusing, sorry about this!

I simply assume that we all have the same experience, witch is false as we all have different experience.

I mean water is a tool just as dirt is a tool also, we as keepers must learn how and when to use these tools.
Its easy to generalise and say water is essential to water monitors because they live in water, but in captivity water has proven to be a problem, most water monitors die from the consequence of dirty water, they drink it or soak there cages with it. this doesn’t affect good keepers like you, but it dose affect 100,000 imported monitors every year.

Good breeders have raised and propagated water monitors without soaking water (just drinking water) ask Robert F.

Same thing with dirt, there are many uses for this tool, I try to avoid it as much as possible because of weight issues, therefore I don’t use it for growing monitors.
Some would say this is a no no! I do not follow any set rules, adapting condition to suit me and my monitors works good for me.

Thanks for supporting my views. I recomend choices. That include wet and dry. If you can make them.

The context of this discussion was not your cages. It was a small take with a large water bowl and dirt. Then that drifted to THEY NEED WET cause they are water monitors. As oppossed to allowing them to dry off. What they need(choices) is to be able to dry off, as you clearly stated. Not one or the other. As a general comment, monitors do not like being wet for long periods, they always try to dry off, if givin the oppertunity. Sometimes, that oppertunity does not exsist, both in nature and in cages. Often it leads to death in both as well. At least the wild ones have options, climb a tree or something.

If you going to keep them in a tiny cage(which I whole heartedly do not recoment) It is better to keep them dry and humid with only drinking water. Then in a tiny sopping wet cage. Don't you agree.

I do understand how you would get confused, as my opponents often make it black and white, extreme opposites, then try to take it out of context. Its rarely black and white, and its rarely extreme and there is a meaningful context. What it is, is our reality, most beginer keepers, keep them how the petshop tells them and in what the petshop sells them. Happily known as a starter kit. The results are repeatable, the monitor dies, the keeper throws the kit away, the petshop sells another monitor and starter kit to a unsuspecting person. This is the common context and the base reality, not what a monitor does in its natural turf.

Again, your cage sounds great, lots of choices for your monitor to exercise its own choices and abilities. Good on you. Cheers

Please,

If you would post without that chip off your shoulder, we surely could get a little farther.

I did not say ritualized combat DEFINES social, I asked if it could be a behavior included with social animals. After all, birds do it, mammals do it, bees do it, etc. In itself does not define anything, but added to other behaviors possibly does.

All you do is deny all facts, observations and behaviors, instead of thinking about them. If ritualized combat is not or cannot be a behavior that can indicate social behavior, then what the heck is it? Why do reptiles do it? what is its purpose? Why do other animals do it?

I do not want to hear, what it is not. I want to learn what RITUALIZED COMBAT IS. WHAT IS IT BY YOUR DIFINITION? tell me, give me a clue. After all, there must be a purpose, there must be a reason these individuals(both sexes do this) do not simply kill the other individual. After all, they are fully capable of doing so. And in some cases, they do attack and injure other individuals.

So you have behavior that includes a ritualized combat and a formal combat. WHY?

About monitors being wet, again, you would rather fight then think. Please think about context. First, If you keep a captive water or any monitor in a "wet" cage. Sir, that will not last to long as wet cages will surely cause sickness and death. We are talking about cages and what happen in cages. Wet cages are a no, no. In the original case, a keeper was placing a large bowl of water(compared to cage size) The reality is, the monitor would go in and out of the water and soak the whole cage, causing the cage to become useless in the successful keeping of said monitor. Get it? Context is very important.

ALso, why do water monitors bask more then land species? Why are they commonly seen out on the side of water canals, ponds, rivers, on branches, etc. much more commonly then land species? Are there more of them, or are they out more. WHY? you like to call yourself a biologist or scientist, but you surely hate to think You do understand it is not offensive or painful for you to actually think about something without having to judge it right or wrong. But your training does not allow you to. YOU have to judge.

So speaking of judging. How do you judge those nests and eggs????? Where they good, bad, awful, superior??????? I do find it so very odd you do not comment on the major part of the post, the nests. WHY? You see, your outlook is based on this behavior of yours, you only comment in a negative way. Things you disagree with. What about those nests and eggs, is there something there you disagree with(other then they happened at my house(out of country of origin) the day before I posted them. Or do you agree with them? What do you think? can you think in any way other then the negative?

So, what about them? Why not ask questions about those nestings? You know, what you as a biologist should ask, How, why, when, where, what, type of questions, the questions that should help YOU understand how they came to be. If you were really interested in monitors, you would ask those questions. You don't. In my mind, your not interested in monitors, your only interested in me. kiss, kiss.

You see, in my little pea brain, those nestings are great. That is what I as a keeper long to see. A perfect nesting with perfect eggs. This expresses we have done something right. You do consider that right don't you? I believe this is the goal of many keepers(including science and zoos)

If you consider, these nestings are results of husbandry, then you must also consider that husbandry was also right to have allowed these nestings. YES? Is this why your afraid to talk about what caused these very good nestings. Then if you consider, the females that laid these eggs were also nested here and hatched here, in the same manner, which indicates repeatable results(a science thing) Why not talk about the nests. Which if your listening is the results and more specifically the results of a specific type of husbandry. As I posted, the parents ARE in groups and act in a social manner. Man do you hate to hear that. So where their parents and their parents parents, and their parents, parents, parents, hahahahahahaha, parents.

So you may be getting a picture. In captivity, it WORKS, to allow these monitors to be treated in a social manner. That is, to allow them to be in groups and have constant association with group members. I call it a worksdonut(It works doesn't it). you see, there is really no need to question something that works and expresses desired results.

To be more specific, these groups, do not fight, or raid the females nests or hinder eachother in any negative way. In reality(captive reality) they help eachother. All they do is express lots of "social" type behaviors that result in those nests and eggs. Which I believe is what the result is suppose to be with wild monitors. To result in successful nests which result in successful recruitment. Yes, is that so? Isn't that what they are suppose to do in nature. Result in recruitment?????

As an educated person, I am sure you understand math and more specifically algebra. You understand equations(the act of making identical) Simply put, there is information on each side of an equal sign. One side equals the other. So if you think about it, there is a base math forumula for recruitment. H = R, very simple, H=husbandry and R=recruitment. Consider, recruitment equals continued exsistances in both nature and captivity.

So lets compare two formulas, one for captivity(H=R) and the new one for nature, NC=R. So if the values are the same, R still equals recruitment, but what is NC? NC=natural conditions.

So again in simple algebra, both nature and captivity equal R, to recruit is to stay in exsistance. Is this not so? So the question is, is does H and NC, equal? In math, it has to, doesn't it.

So the formulas, H=R and NC=R, both result in recruitment. So that indicates that H and NC are the same, or at least very similar. Sir, this is math and you as a biologist live by math. So use it here too. Can you show me how this is not so???????

Ok, we all know, that its not so simple, but as a base formula it has to be accurate. So on a base level we are accurate, we have provided conditions in captivity that EQUAL NC(natural conditions) in that they both result in R(successful recruitment)

Sir, this is the goal of keepers and nature. The goal is the same. So now we have a similar goal, to exsist. We have similar results, successful recruitment. So in fact, The formula is accurate, H=R is NC=R. And according to the rules of math, H(husbandry) must equal NC. That is so.

Yes I know, you going to jump up and down and scream and holler and say math this and math that. But remember, this is the same math you fellas throw at us, ALL THE TIME. So please, you cannot have your math and eat it too. hahahahahahahahaha

While this is fun and its really something I hope people find entertaining, its also deadly serious, IN A SIMPLE WAY, that formula is very very accurate and meaningful. BOTH H and NC when equalling the same, R(recruitment). Have to be the same.

As an open minded person, I realize the details do not have to be the same. There is millions of variations, but the end results are the same and are equal. The goal of living enities is to R(recruit). The goal of captive husbandry is to allow recruitment. This is biological law. Therefore, if R is achieved by both, that has to be called successful.

As a field biologist, I also understand, that NC(natural conditions) Also is not consistant. That is, it too is full of variables. Which brings up the point, again, both H and NC are similar in that they both vary.

It also brings up another point. and to me, this point is profound. The animals in question have their own inherent set of behaviors to deal with those variables. Is this not so?

So lets add this to the forumula. Each species has a set values, lets call that, SSA(species specific abilities) So lets see, H(SSA)=R then compare that to, NC(SSA)=R Woooooooo, Ain't that cool, its still the same thing. H still equals R and NC still equals R. Lets see, H(SSA)=NC(SSA), then divide both sides by (SSA) still equals H=NC. dang this is fun. and its true too. Can't argue with math hey? Oh by the way, I constructed the formula in this manner because if you increase H, say make it 2H, then it also increases R, equally to 2R. So 2H(SSA)=2R and 2NC(SSA)=2R dang this thing actually works. You really gotta like that math.

So you get the picture. All these years I try to explain to you that something we do in our captive conditions equals the same as what you see in nature. But all you do is fight and kick and scream. So maybe this approach may be better. In a very simple way, its very accurate. We in captivity are in all reality recieving the same desired results that nature is trying to achieve. I do understand, H and NC both contain levels that can fail, and both can achieve superior(above normal) results. But indeed both are indeed equal in this manner.

That you and your friends argue this is what is so odd to me and very non scientific. On the otherhand, I am very scientific, I ask lots of questions. And I also follow science.

To bad you don't question what your taught, It may effect what you see. That you do not question what your taught, is why I call you prejudiced. You are not seeing the reality. Those pictures are reality. Simple again hey, Cheers

There are people that keep king cobras(ophiaphagus) together though, with no problem.So they can be social.Some one a few yrs. ago published an article on(cobras) them & showed picts. of a group. Plus here in the philly zoo there are 2 kept together about the same size.

The use of extreme examples is very silly and naive of those who do so.

I work with many reptiles in the field, and in some basic way, most behave the same. But only is a basic way, like an outline. But the details in the outline can vary a lot.

For instance, With montane rattlesnakes(C.willardi, lepdis, prici) the can live in fairly predictable groups and stay together most if not all the year. Yet, diamondbacks appear to group up breed then seperate immediately after copulation. Both rattlesnakes, but very different in behavior, as you would expect.

Of interest, our diamondbacks return to the same pairs or groups, year after year. Compared to the montanes staying in the same pairs and groups, year after year.

When working with wild gilas(same ones for 27years) they maintain strong pairs, within strong groups, and stay together for decades(Enviornment permitting) Remember Gilas and monitors are very similar, except gilas being a whole lot slower and easier to watch.

Also, they want captivity to be what forces snakes and lizards to work in groups. I totally disaggree with them. I do agree that it forces closer contact. For instance, in nature, a pair will live in the same area. Often right with its mate, but a other times stay within a few feet of its mates and still at other times, many meters away. But still staying in the same area as their mates. Not going into other areas with other groups. In most cases, its the male that attends the female, he will follow the female with gusto, at all times, even in non breeding seasons.

So using King Cobras is funny, whether they are solitary or not. If you use them as an example(an opposite extreme), then you must include other cobras known to live in dense colonies, as well. But that would not support his point.

Something else not discussed is the size space relationship. Smaller monitors are easily found in small tight groups. But larger monitors must have more space. So its harder to see, but still exsists.

If you think in a more pratical way, how fast do monitors travel? A large monitor can travel a hundred meters in a few minutes. Compared to small monitors that cannot move that fast. So small monitors can have several different colonies within a hundred meters, but larger monitors need hundreds of meters to include different colonies.

So indeed its far harder to see large monitors in groups, with the exception of Komodos, which are in groups because they are on an island(hahahahahahahahahahaha) and some one is/was feeding them goats. Cheers