Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm a bit confused about genetics in a creamsicle......

We crossed our female creamsicle with an amel male. What should our babies be???

Thanx for any input.

Matt and Lisa

Amels
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I have come to the conclusion that there is no cure for snake addiction!

them as creamsicles, even after you cross them with a cornsnake.
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phflame
kingsnake.com host

They would be labeled just what they are....It's not like I'm making jungle corns. Thanx for the advice though.

"creamsicle X amel"

Matt

Actually, it's EXACTLY like your making jungle corns.... There is still blood in there that is not corn. So they need to be labeled as creamsicles.
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

As we say in Missouri, "I ain't goin back to Missouri!"

Jungle corns are hybrids

Creamsicles are a lineage of an intergrade.

Sine not phenotype for creamsicle you can not "label" them creamsicles.

That would be like me having a boa het for albino and I call it albino.

It is het. It carres the gene.

I'm not one totally against hybrids, but there is a HUGE difference between intergrade and hybrid. Please do not make people think they are the same.

Big Tom

They are not hets either. "Het" implies the concept of being heterozygous for one mutated gene at a specific locus along the DNA chain.

Since Creamsicles are hybrids (and they are now that emoryii is considered its own species and not a sub-species of corn snake any longer), they cannot be "het" for that genetic differentiation.

If you breed two animals that are het for amel, you will get amels, statisically speaking. But you can breed two creamsicles together for as long as you'd like, and you will never have a pure emoryii (or pure corn) hatch out of that mix. Why? Because hybridization and creating "hets" are not the same thing.

The concensus among creamsicle breeders is to label any amelanistic offspring of corn x emoryii breeding as "creamsicles." So as to avoid the confusion that can be brought about by abandoning that name when those offspring are bred back to corns and the F2 generation is more red than the original creams, ALL amel offspring from such breedings are labeled as "creamsicles" regardless of the percentage of emoryyi blood contained or the coloration of the individuals so named.

Breeding a creamsicle to an amel corn will yield 100% creamsicles that may, or may not be as orange or red as either parent.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

You're always one step ahead of me with your replies!
I agree with you 100%.

Tim

So why is it you get compliments for your posts and all I get is yelled at?
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

As we say in Missouri, "I ain't goin back to Missouri!"

It's because of that "I ain't going back to Missouri" thing you have at the bottom of every post.

Everybody loves a Hillbilly...didn't you know that?

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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

i wonder how many people would be completely honest and admit what corns they have bred or are breeding with creamsicles.
that would be interesting to see, their is one hell of a lot of corn hybrids in peoples collections and has been for a very long time.

.
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Thanks for looking

WWW.Uk-Hybrids.com

I agree, and a lot of people don't care; as long as it looks, eats, and breeds like a corn...it's a corn to them.

BUT...for those who DO care, I think we owe them the opportunity to choose whether to have hybridized blood in their collections or not.

So, for that reason alone, I am very particular about how I label any animal I produce, and I think most reputable breeders are as well.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

Thanks darin
it is a shame that to many breeders these days dont care how they label or intentionaly leave genetics out.

If their hybrids label them hybrids and dont be afraid, its better to have respect for the honesty than to be labeled a dishonest breeder.

.
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Thanks for looking

WWW.Uk-Hybrids.com

>>i wonder how many people would be completely honest and admit what corns they have bred or are breeding with creamsicles.
>>that would be interesting to see, their is one hell of a lot of corn hybrids in peoples collections and has been for a very long time.
>>
>>
>>.

It's simple.
Honest people will be honest.
Dishonest people will be dishonest.
As far as creamsicles, or other emoryi mixes are concerned there is a growing interest in these so there is no longer a need to hide the fact that they have emoryi blood in them.
I think the number of people who would lie about this would be a lot less then you would think, now.

-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

This is a foolish statement: "Actually, it's EXACTLY like your making jungle corns...."

Thanx for emphasizing the "EXACTLY" too. I'll emphasize the "YOU'RE COMPLETELY WRONG".

Creamsicles have some emoryi (same GENUS, same SPECIES) genes at work. They are NOT hybrids like jungle corns (different GENUS, different SPECIES), and hence are surely not "EXACTLY" like them.

Matt

Sorry.....I guess I forgot about the small techicality..... reclassification.

That does make it more similar (I can't do exactly) to jungle corns.

Matt

>>Sorry.....I guess I forgot about the small techicality..... reclassification.
>>
>>That does make it more similar (I can't do exactly) to jungle corns.
>>
>>
>>Matt

yep, you are the one who was wrong

Due to the reclassifications Pantherophis emoryi bred to Pantherophis guttatus is considered a hybrid.
sorry, you can huff and puff all you want but that's the way it is.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

>>>>Sorry.....I guess I forgot about the small techicality..... reclassification.
>>>>
>>>>That does make it more similar (I can't do exactly) to jungle corns.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Matt
>>
>>
>>yep, you are the one who was wrong
>>
>>Due to the reclassifications Pantherophis emoryi bred to Pantherophis guttatus is considered a hybrid.
>>sorry, you can huff and puff all you want but that's the way it is.

***********************************

So if they reclassify it again it won't be? Or that is possible?

Why does this sound like our Gov't?

..........

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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

great pic

So what did you end up with this season Darrin?
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

As we say in Missouri, "I ain't goin back to Missouri!"

You'd get Amels het for cream. The cream would pass on the genetics of the Emory/great plains rat. So the babies would be het for that.

Amels het for cream
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This area under construction

1.3 Bearded Dragons Eenie, Meanie, Minie and Moe is the Male

1.1 Western hognose

Corn snakes
Bloodred 0.1
Zipper Amel 0.1 Erica Von Zipper
Amel 1.0 Stud Muffin
Amel 0.1 Lucy Goosey
Creamcicle 0.1 Sherbert

Double Yellow Headed Amazon - Amazona ochrocephala oratrix 0.1? Pretty Girl
Yellow Naped Amazon - Amazona ochrocephala auropalliata 1.1? Carol - Male, Foghorn Leghorn - Female
Blue Front Amazon - Amazona aestiva 1.0? Miss Prissy
Blue and Gold Macaw - Ara ararauna 0.1 April

2.0 Dogs, Michigan, Doc
0.2 Cats,, Sassie and Spooky (all black cat)
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!) I call her (BOSS)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
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tom

www.herpzilla.com

Although there's probably no place where an "official" ruling can be made, I think most breeders would call an amel corn with Great Plains ratsnake in its genetic makeup a "creamsicle."

It does not matter if it's 50% Great Plains ratsnake/50% corn snake. It could only have 1% Great Plains ratsnake genetics in it - as long as it's an amel corn with Great Plains ratsnake genetics in it, it's a creamcicle.

Therefore if you bred an amel to a creamsicle, you'd get 100% creamsicle offspring.

Tim

Third Eye

>>Although there's probably no place where an "official" ruling can be made, I think most breeders would call an amel corn with Great Plains ratsnake in its genetic makeup a "creamsicle."
>>
>>It does not matter if it's 50% Great Plains ratsnake/50% corn snake. It could only have 1% Great Plains ratsnake genetics in it - as long as it's an amel corn with Great Plains ratsnake genetics in it, it's a creamcicle.
>>
>>Therefore if you bred an amel to a creamsicle, you'd get 100% creamsicle offspring.

**********
Ok I'll go for that. But is it logical to call a 5% emory 95% amel the same as a 95% emory 5% amel?

I think the standard forst should be 50/50, 95% emory should be heavy cream. maybe 95% amel low fat?

OK, half joking, but it would be nice to know what to call each type.

I like the heavy cream vs. low fat concept!

See, you're catching on already!!!
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

lol
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This area under construction

1.3 Bearded Dragons Eenie, Meanie, Minie and Moe is the Male

1.1 Western hognose

Corn snakes
Bloodred 0.1
Zipper Amel 0.1 Erica Von Zipper
Amel 1.0 Stud Muffin
Amel 0.1 Lucy Goosey
Creamcicle 0.1 Sherbert

Double Yellow Headed Amazon - Amazona ochrocephala oratrix 0.1? Pretty Girl
Yellow Naped Amazon - Amazona ochrocephala auropalliata 1.1? Carol - Male, Foghorn Leghorn - Female
Blue Front Amazon - Amazona aestiva 1.0? Miss Prissy
Blue and Gold Macaw - Ara ararauna 0.1 April

2.0 Dogs, Michigan, Doc
0.2 Cats,, Sassie and Spooky (all black cat)
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!) I call her (BOSS)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
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tom

www.herpzilla.com

>>>>Although there's probably no place where an "official" ruling can be made, I think most breeders would call an amel corn with Great Plains ratsnake in its genetic makeup a "creamsicle."
>>>>
>>>>It does not matter if it's 50% Great Plains ratsnake/50% corn snake. It could only have 1% Great Plains ratsnake genetics in it - as long as it's an amel corn with Great Plains ratsnake genetics in it, it's a creamcicle.
>>>>
>>>>Therefore if you bred an amel to a creamsicle, you'd get 100% creamsicle offspring.
>>
>>
>>**********
>>Ok I'll go for that. But is it logical to call a 5% emory 95% amel the same as a 95% emory 5% amel?
>>
>>I think the standard forst should be 50/50, 95% emory should be heavy cream. maybe 95% amel low fat?
>>
>>OK, half joking, but it would be nice to know what to call each type.

It truly is best to label them as creamsicle simply because this name is synonymous with emoryi blood.
No matter what the percentages people will know, by the name, there is emoryi blood.
Now if the percentages were important to a person those percentages could be listed...creamsicle 50% emoryi
or cream 37.5% emoryi...etc etc.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

I can not stop.

OK, I follow the logic, may even agree to it to some degree 70%.

but then as we breed bloodreds to everything, the logic would be to keep the bloodred name tagged along. OK I know not an intergrade example. But it has it's similarities. To me a snake with 25% bloodred that is anery, or white, should not be called a bloodred.

You do not call a ghost boa anery ghost.

Gee I hope I'm correct in that you need anery to get to ghosts?

If I'm wrong, please ignore that!

Big Tom

>>I can not stop.
>>
>>OK, I follow the logic, may even agree to it to some degree 70%.
>>
>>but then as we breed bloodreds to everything, the logic would be to keep the bloodred name tagged along. OK I know not an intergrade example. But it has it's similarities. To me a snake with 25% bloodred that is anery, or white, should not be called a bloodred.
>>
>>You do not call a ghost boa anery ghost.
>>
>>Gee I hope I'm correct in that you need anery to get to ghosts?
>>
>>If I'm wrong, please ignore that!
>>
>>Big Tom
>>

But if you noticed I did not say 37.5% creamsicle.
I am saying creamsicle that has 37.5% emoryi.
I am not exactly sure if how you would get 25% bloodered but if that was the case it probably wouldn't be called bloodred.
See if you can actually break it down to get 25% bloodred.
Or even use an easier morph.
Try amel ( no cream, no hybridization just simply amel)
As I see it there is no way to get 25% amel.
It is amel or it isn't
amelanism is a lack of melanin. It is or it isn't.
If you breed an amel to an amel you get an amel.
If you breed an amel to a normal you do not get 50% amel 50% normal you get a normal het amel.
with bloodred, diffused or whatever they are calling it these days it still breaks down the same.
If you breed a bloodred to a bloodred you get bloodreds.
If you breed a bloodred to a normal you do not get a 50/50 bloodred/normal you get a normal het bloodred.
So if you took that normal het bloodred and bred it to another normal you would not have 25% bloodred/75% normals you would have normals possibly het bloodred.
now back to creamsicles.
if it has corn and emoryi blood and expresses amelanism it is called creamsicle.
It doesn't matter if there is 25% emoryi or 75% emoryi it is stll an emoryi/corn expressing amelanism.
By calling this snake a creamsicle you express the fact that it carries the amel gene and has emoryi blood.
ANY amount of emoryi blood means this snake is no longer a corn snake but a hybrid.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

Jimmy,
You've hit the nail right on!!!!! There is a difference in a trait based on color/pattern and one based on blood. The key word is hybrid. No matter what the appearance, if it has 1% or 99% emory it is a hybrid. And we have the responsibility to say it's a hybrid. I'm working with a beautiful strain of reversed okeetees. One parent is a Cream so I will sell the neonates as Amels Okeetee with emory blood. They are hybrids. Great post Jimmy.

Pat GC

Bloodred is a bloodline with those genetics of a bloodred.

Eastern green rat snake intergrades are not called yellow black rat snakes.

No they are not.... they are called "Greenish" rat snakes if I remember correctly. But it is the same thing, by the name it is called you know it has yellow and black rat genes. Just like you know the word creamsicle means an emoryi/corn cross.
-----
0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

As we say in Missouri, "I ain't goin back to Missouri!"

Sorry I'm 47, in 1973 we called then green rat snakes. I'm still playing catch up on names. And the corn was a red rat snake come to think of it.

wow that was over load.

point was any cream/emory blood it is a cream

then any blood blood it would be a bloodred. I disagree with that.
-----
This area under construction

1.3 Bearded Dragons Eenie, Meanie, Minie and Moe is the Male

1.1 Western hognose

Corn snakes
Bloodred 0.1
Zipper Amel 0.1 Erica Von Zipper
Amel 1.0 Stud Muffin
Amel 0.1 Lucy Goosey
Creamcicle 0.1 Sherbert

Double Yellow Headed Amazon - Amazona ochrocephala oratrix 0.1? Pretty Girl
Yellow Naped Amazon - Amazona ochrocephala auropalliata 1.1? Carol - Male, Foghorn Leghorn - Female
Blue Front Amazon - Amazona aestiva 1.0? Miss Prissy
Blue and Gold Macaw - Ara ararauna 0.1 April

2.0 Dogs, Michigan, Doc
0.2 Cats,, Sassie and Spooky (all black cat)
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!) I call her (BOSS)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
-----
tom

www.herpzilla.com

at least once or twice, I'll try. I'm pretty sure that you cannot have "het" for bloodred.

Technically that is. I don't know the consesus, but I understand bloodred to be a co-dominant gene...meaning, that if it isn't display the characteristics of the bloodred, It doesn't have bloodred in it.

Think of it this way, we don't say that a snake is het for normal if it's an anery.

Normal is the dominant trait . . . in the same way, Bloodred is a dominant trait, and it doesn't make "hets" per say

But hell, I could be wrong...
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I found the cure for hope.
Stephen Diekmann
nehpets1*at*juno.com

1.0 Anerythristic Motley Cornsnake
0.1 Sunglow Motley Cornsnake
1.0 Unknown, probably normal, poss. okeetee, poss. hypo
0.1 Snow Cornsnake
0.1 Snow het Lavender het Opal Cornsnake
1.1 Butter Cornsnake
0.1 Candycane x Amelanistic Cornsnake
1.2 Ghost Coral Cornsnake
1.1 Hypo Bloodred Cornsnake
?.? 1 Hognose, Origin unknown

The het for bloodred debate was 2 weeks ago lol.

As I recall, single gene for diffusion, so that part I GUESS could be CONSIDERED diffused. but no one really understand all of what is going on in a bloodred, so no one should be able to call it one way or another. IMO

Hmmm I have a cream and a bloodred. Cross them and I get creamy bloods. Cross with a butter cinnamon corn and I've have buttered creamy blood w/ cinnamon.

I'd add in a pepper corn, but that would be gosh.

Big Tom

The start of Hybrids

Longest thread ever....

But I guess that I missed the debate. My bad.
-----
I found the cure for hope.
Stephen Diekmann
nehpets1*at*juno.com

1.0 Anerythristic Motley Cornsnake
0.1 Sunglow Motley Cornsnake
1.0 Unknown, probably normal, poss. okeetee, poss. hypo
0.1 Snow Cornsnake
0.1 Snow het Lavender het Opal Cornsnake
1.1 Butter Cornsnake
0.1 Candycane x Amelanistic Cornsnake
1.2 Ghost Coral Cornsnake
1.1 Hypo Bloodred Cornsnake
?.? 1 Hognose, Origin unknown

You are missing the point.

The point is simply that you can not have a 25% morph. It is or it isn't
There are no 25% amels, anerys, diffused, lavenders, hypos etc.
You CAN have an animal that is 25% emoryi.
that's the point

bloodred, diffused pattern, whatever they are calling that mess is an entirely different discussion to the point we were trying to make.

we could talk for weeks on the stupidity of an animal called an anery bloodred and similar "bloodreds"
I think/hope they are leaning more towards difused as the pattern anomoly and bloodred actually being the selective bred version of a diffused which grows into a beautifuly dark red adult snake.
But, for a while there was no differentiating between bloodred the selective bred coloration and diffusion the patterning.
take this one....hypo lavender bloodred?
I have seen it listed, how can you have an animal that is Lavender and Bloodred? That is two colors Lavender and blood-red
That is why I say this is an entirely different subject.

I have personaly chosen to stay away from that mess so maybe someone who has a TRUE handle on bloodred/diffused can jump in.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

I think the problem is that people think the term "creamsicle" describes the orange coloration in the snake. That is not(necessarily) true. The term creamsicle is used to let the buyer know that it has emoryi blood in it. We could simplify it possibly by calling anything with emoryi in it a creamsicle and call the ones that exhibit the orange characteristics an "Orange Creamsicle." But who knows if that will ever catch on.
-----
0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

As we say in Missouri, "I ain't goin back to Missouri!"

Breeding a creamsicle to an amel corn will yield 100% creamsicles that may, or may not be as orange or red as either parent.

So, they will all be creamsicles.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

I toally disagree with all I have said. Ok That was a joke. Now I have seen het for creamsicle used.

I know it was in a differet situation.

I'll just surrender.

For now!

Oh, I don't doubt it at all that you've seen "het for creamsicle" used in ads and such. I've seen "het for miami" and "het for okeetee" too, but I think those are both equally wrong.

I wasn't meaning to sound as though I was jumping on anyone. Sorry, if I cam across too harsh.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

No not at all. If I feel someone is jumping on me, they will kow it.

But now that I opened a new window, i took het for cream as, a snake carrying the amelxemory blood.

lets say a normal mates with a cream. The babies are going to look normal, het for amel, but also carry that emory blood. Correct?

So, if I took 1 of those "het" babies, and bred it to a "pure" cream, I PRESUME I would get 50% creams?

To answer the question you posed:

Yes, you would get 50% Creamsicles in such a pairing you described.

But, to further avoid confusion, other names for emoryii x corn crosses have been established. Two of them are:

Rootbeer - Normally colored offspring of enoryii x corn crosses

Creamsoda - Hypo offspring of enoryii x corn crosses

So, in your example...

Breeding a creamsicle to a normal corn would produce 100% rootbeers, het for amelanism.

Then breeding those F2 animals together would give you 25% creamsicles, 50% rootbeers het for amel, and 25% rootbeers.

I'm sure you get the picture from there onward...

The names employed don't tell anyone what percentage of emoryii blood is there. It just tells the prospective buyer that there is some.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

>>To answer the question you posed:
>>
>>Yes, you would get 50% Creamsicles in such a pairing you described.
>>
>>But, to further avoid confusion, other names for emoryii x corn crosses have been established. Two of them are:
>>
>>Rootbeer - Normally colored offspring of enoryii x corn crosses
*** I thought rootbeer was teh first cross of reverse amel with emory? then 2nd generations were creams?

>>Creamsoda - Hypo offspring of enoryii x corn crosses
*** never heard of that one. I'll have to copyright sodapop! lol
>>
>>So, in your example...
>>
>>Breeding a creamsicle to a normal corn would produce 100% rootbeers, het for amelanism.

***Back to rootbeer being amelxemory

***My example was normal corn x a cream
Since a rootbeer never started with a regular corn, i don;t get that one? but I think I get teh idea in a sense it would would be breeding backwards to where teh cream came from.
>>
>>Then breeding those F2 animals together would give you 25% creamsicles, 50% rootbeers het for amel, and 25% rootbeers.
>>
>>I'm sure you get the picture from there onward...
>>
>>The names employed don't tell anyone what percentage of emoryii blood is there. It just tells the prospective buyer that there is some.

***Just my opinion, but we had great terms for early genetic events. But there are so many combinations with corns in particular, well, I think that may be some of the confusion.

It was said amelxcream = all creams, but less orange (something link that. Then you can go in the other direction, add more rootbeer to the cream to add more color. I guess all creams? But some more amel blood, the other way would add more emory.

How do you define all the possibilities? And this is a simple one. Add levelas of bloodred to creams and it could get quite involved.

Good topic to me. I sit and try to learn more. But it seems there are many opinions. It makes it tough.

Big Tom

You've hit the nail on the head...it's confusing. it's even more so, when there are those who are not using the terms involved in the same way.

You stated that to you, rootbeers were the F1 generation of amel x emoryii, right? And I said that they were the normally colored animals carrying the blood of both species. Right there is a differentiation of terminology usage, but at least you and I aren't far apart. Genetically speaking, they are basically the same thing, just arrived at from different directions. Your rootbeers and mine a normals carrying both emoryii and corn blood.

However, it is precisely because of that confusion (compounded by the fact that we have literally thousands of new people in the hobby/business every year, each one of whom has "heard it a different way" it seems), that the more generic definitions have begun to be adopted by most breeders. It may not be as technically accurate as when compared to what you were describing, but in the final analysis, it is more productive.

ANY animal that has emoryii blood in it, to any degree, needs to be labeled with one of the names cited (creamsicle, rootbeer, creamsoda, etc.), so that the prospective buyer knows what he is getting. He can't have any idea as to the percentages of emoryii blood in the mix, but that seems to be less problematic for hybrid/intergrade breeders and keepers, than is the accidental introduction of emoryii blood would be for those seeking to breed only pure corns.

One side or the other had to give a little, and since you can always add more emoryii blood to an intergrade/hybrid, but you can't take it out of a formerly pure line of corns once it's been introduced...that's what we all kind of decided by consensus to do.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

OK, I learned something. I guess, at this time I'll agree to tall them all creams. Although Amel het for cream, also lets people know what it has in it, but I know the het will get dropped, so I agree.

Until, as I ask so many times, a system to deal with the corn breeding. It will only work if it:

1 works
2 semi easy to follow for most
3 started buy main breeders.

I could come up with a perfect system, term, level names for family levels, and mixtures of other corn blood. But no one would respect it, nor follow it.

I do not follow other genetic projects, but it seems the corns are very very involved. Not all complex. Just a ton of combinations.

I'm not a newbie, but in some ways I am. I admit it. The system has to evolve from the top. I deal with the bottom. It's not going to happen from that end.

Dang is that a straight line or what. But working retail, I hear some of the most ridicules terms and statements from some people.

And as a jokester, I have to admit, I mess with a few. Like saying after hearing someone describe what they want, I say they need a corn double het for normal, and they reply yea I know.

My lower lip has scares from biting it.

We all have limitations, but it seems many people today cannot admit to them?

This topic and conversationand was fun, thanks for your time

Big Tom

never heard cream soda.
we call hypo emoryi/corn cinnamons

-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

I thought hypo was removal of black? And creams are amels, no black? So in cream sodas, there is removal of black that is not there?

>>I thought hypo was removal of black? And creams are amels, no black? So in cream sodas, there is removal of black that is not there?
>>

That's why I like cinnamon.
No tie in to amelanism or "creamsicle"
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

You're right Jimmy...you can tell I haven't been "into" emoryii crosses for a while, Huh?

There were several people calling hypo emoryii crosses "creamsoda corns" for a while when they were first produced, but now that Jimmy has sais so, I remember that they ARE most prevelantly known as cinnamons now.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

...anery and snow byproducts of of creamsicle breedings?
These (and a snow) all came from a cream to het cream (rootbeer) breeding.

This, like most long posts here, has been very informative.

Tim

Third Eye

>>...anery and snow byproducts of of creamsicle breedings?
>>These (and a snow) all came from a cream to het cream (rootbeer) breeding.
>>
>>This, like most long posts here, has been very informative.
>>
>>Tim
>>
>>Third Eye

Tim that is a great question.

I have been trying to find any instances where
anery emoryi/corns or
snow emoryi/corns have been given any kind of name to help denote the emoryi blood.
So far, no luck.
I have seen emoryi/corn snows and emoryi/corn anerys mentioned but never a name coined.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

How about emory/corn hybrid????

Pat

>>How about emory/corn hybrid????
>>
>>
>>Pat

sorry Pat, too simple! LOL

We have the names for
normal emoryi/corn: rootbeer
amel emoryi/corn: creamsicle
hypo emoryi corn: cinnamon

Are they perfect descriptors of the snakes? No
Can they be misleading? Yes
Is it better to state it as an amel emoryi/corn, hypo emoryi/corn or normal emoryi corn? Probably (some would say yes others would ask why. If the name becomes synonymous with emoryi blood why be redundant?)

But...trade names sell, simple as that

Creamsicle sounds better then amelanistic emoryi/corn
Rootbeer sounds better then normal emoryi/corn...
Cinnamon sounds better then hypo emoryi/corn....

It’s just a matter of time before someone coins a name for the snows, anerys..etc.
Just because it will happen, does this make it right? Not necessarily
But at the same time, just because some may not agree does this make it wrong? Not necessarily
The hobby changes, names change, sometimes for the better sometimes not.
That's the nature of the beast.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

I do believe there is a chocolate corn of some sort? if so and it crosses with a cream, I claim the name fudgsicle!

That is a great question. As of yet I don't think they have been given a formal name. I am actually working on starting an emoryi/ corn anery and snow project to see what I can come up with.
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

As we say in Missouri, "I ain't goin back to Missouri!"

going back to the general concensus that we should call amelanistic emoryi/corn crosses creamsicle, you can have a rootbeer het creamsicle (normal g.p.r./corn het amel)
or cinnamon het creamsicle (hypo g.p..r/corn het amel)
so, there can actually be het creamsicle!!!
don't you just love it....lol
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

http://www.herpzilla.com/fun/maha.wav
Scienticif explaination of corn genetics

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This area under construction

1.3 Bearded Dragons Eenie, Meanie, Minie and Moe is the Male

1.1 Western hognose

Corn snakes
Bloodred 0.1
Zipper Amel 0.1 Erica Von Zipper
Amel 1.0 Stud Muffin
Amel 0.1 Lucy Goosey
Creamcicle 0.1 Sherbert

Double Yellow Headed Amazon - Amazona ochrocephala oratrix 0.1? Pretty Girl
Yellow Naped Amazon - Amazona ochrocephala auropalliata 1.1? Carol - Male, Foghorn Leghorn - Female
Blue Front Amazon - Amazona aestiva 1.0? Miss Prissy
Blue and Gold Macaw - Ara ararauna 0.1 April

2.0 Dogs, Michigan, Doc
0.2 Cats,, Sassie and Spooky (all black cat)
0.1 Wives, (Long term captive!,, I mean ME!) I call her (BOSS)
1.1 Kids (Paininthearsius takamemonii) J/K great kids
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tom

www.herpzilla.com