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I've noticed all this discussion lately about the Eastern Kings in South Georgia and wondered if anyone else thought that instead of "goini" or Florida Kings having an influence in this area, maybe it's the other way around. First off, the fact that these Kings often come up with wide bands simply shows it's not an influence from Florida Kings. Secondly, since the wide banded Easterns are found all over S GA all the way into SC, I think we can safely say that it's not from "goini" as well. So maybe it's just that we see more of a natural variation in the EK in these areas. It's already been shown/proven that "goini" are closer to the Eastern King than anything else and after seeing what Keith Hillson popped out this year, maybe "goini" really did evolve naturally from the EK. Any thoughts?

You raise an interesting question, but I think that the general concencus behind the southern origins is the large amount of diversity there. It would seem that the zones of integration or the melting pots are the sources of divergence with speciation occuring as you get farther from those places. That is if you consider subspecies to be unique.
Best,
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Jason L. Dobry
Research Associate
College of Veterinary Medicine
Department of Veterinary Comparative Anatomy, Pharmacology and Physiology
Washington State University

You raise an interesting question, but I think that the general concencus behind the southern origins is the large amount of diversity there.

Certainly in areas like the Outer Banks and with the Mosaic Kings but I don't think the diversity is that great in the S GA population. Most look pretty typical like this male I found in Grady Co.

Agreed on that being a typical eastern from that area. There are several areas north of that location that have easterns that are chocolate and cream colored and the cream bands are 5-7 scales wide. And in the same area you can or most often find a eastern looking like the one you posted. I dont have the time to get out like I use to but when the weather cools some I think I may have to make a trip to get some photos.
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www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

Hey Toby, good to hear from ya! What's goin' on in your snake room? Any hatchlings?
Todd Hughes

Man working and trying to catch up still on carving man is keeping me going. I didnt get to breed much but I did hatch out the albino ruthie X thayeri and I have another clutch in the oven but not saying anything about them till I see what they look like. HEHEHEHE. I try to get by and atleast read as much as I can but Life calls you know.
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www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

yeah you keepin secrets again? Well that's ok as long as you post 'em after they shed and keep on carvin' those awesome staves! Don't be a stranger! We need mo' info on those "pure" s.Ga. forms, lol!
Todd Hughes

That is the yellowest yellow I've seen on a King - almost looks like a Spilotes.

You been feeding him carrots?

JPD
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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"

w.c. "pure" holbrooki with possible splendida influence, snake,lizard and mouse eater no carotene. Just the way they grow at that locale.
Todd hughes

Bands that are 5-7 scales wide? Do you have any pictures of those? I haven't seen one on Hillson's site with that width in the bands except for the CB ones.

Nope, but that why I said I'll have to make a trip when the weather cools off.
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www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

Cool! Looking forward to see them.

Most is a good representation....probably 70% look like the animal you posted Sean but 30% of the population is more like what Toby described, at least that's what I found when thinking back & checking records of the coupld of hundred I had written down.

I haven't found nearly as many as you have Bart but I hope to catch up. I'm going to try to get farther north next year and hit areas I've never been too before. It's just hard to get that far away when there's already so much so close to home.

That shouldn't take long at all the way you've been turning stuff up the last five years LOL...and yeah if I were where you are, I don't think I would head North nearly as much as you do.

B

Do you guys know anything about the inheritance of the wide bands? Do you ever see those individuals pop up in clutches from what you would consider "pure" eastern parents from wild caught stock?
Cheers,
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Jason L. Dobry
Research Associate
College of Veterinary Medicine
Department of Veterinary Comparative Anatomy, Pharmacology and Physiology
Washington State University

There was a guy I knew that used to collect a ton of gravid females & hatch the babies out for sale to the South FL dealers, you would see hatchlings that ran the gamut from narrow to superwide from normal looking females. I remember one instance in particular, he had a really nice female with striping & wide bands who's babies all had fairly normal looking 2 scale wide bands no orange...nothing extraordinary...he was really disappointed about that.....I don't think it's a cut & dried pattern to how they are inherited. Unless you do some line breeding & refine the stock as was done with the Enge line.

Horridus

I do know this - all the S GA talk has peaked my interest in the snake. L g getula wasn't on the list of snakes I wanted to aquire - but the talk of S GA kings, along with the pictured of them I have seen, has changed my mind.

For getula, now I want some brooksi, S Ga getula, Splendida, and possibly holbrooki.

The S Ga kings bumped honduran milks from 07 wish list to 08 (which might be better, the hondurans I want are some of the nice looking somewhat expensive morphs, price goes down each year as number of captive breeders increase).
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Yeah the S GA EKs are nice but certainly don't expect them to look like the line from Will and Keith. That line is exceptional and I guess it's possible to come across one like it but you'd have to do lots of field work.

As some of us know, wide bands (and some orange colors in young) even occur as far north as VA. beach. I know Tony (D), has/had some nice specimens in the past from NE. North Carolina that I almost purchased myself, because they resembled the South Ga. kings so much. They had fairly wide bands and a lot of dark spots in the white araes as well which gave them a very nice looking appearance. . .
Not to mention the OBKs in NC. and the Edisto Island Mosaics that Kevin Enge brought to light . . .
Here's an example of variation; A couple of my S. Ga. kings that are actually a little related. But look at the difference: The Black and white one was always black and white, and the peach colored one was a little more orange at hatching but still looks this way today (he's two years old now):

Zee

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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

Hey Zee,

Where did the one with all the red in it come from? Of all the Easterns I've found, only juveniles had any red in them. Even the young sub-adults I've come across have had no red in them that I can remember.

“wondered if anyone else thought that instead of "goini" or Florida Kings having an influence in this area, maybe it's the other way around.”

The thought that gene flow exists on a one way street never entered my mind!

“fact that these Kings often come up with wide bands simply shows it's not an influence from Florida Kings”

“Fact” is the originating locality of Will’s line is kinda north of goini. Not exactly a location that would lend one to speculate about FL influence.

“since the wide-banded Easterns are found all over S GA all the way into SC, I think we can safely say that it's not from "goini" as well”

Easterns that can be described as wide-banded, range all the way into Virginia! I’d also say that wide-banded easterns are somewhat, if not strongly, associated with coastal environs. Additionally in the work that I and others have done with SE VA kings, which outwardly appears to be a pretty solidly wide-banded population, adult / breeder band width has proved to be a very poor predictor of band width in neonates. At least in this one population, you can’t even select for wide-bandedness and increase the frequency of neonates with that trait!

What Will has been able to achieve is an order of magnitude beyond anything I’ve seen from rather long term projects that originate from wide-banded populations and in my estimation the reason for this is the proximity to goini not the discovery of a unique genetic anomaly from a classic or apex L.g.g. population.

I’d like to add something here because it may not have been read as its several threads down. Will posted a very thoughtful reply to a previous thread I initiated. Though he never said I was impugning his stock the implication was inferred that perhaps I had. That was never my intent. Though others have, Will has never rejected the potential that his line may have some historic influence from goini. He knows what he has and that is a fantastic line of locality eastern kings from S. GA. If anyone took it as different I apologies. If nothing else I’m man enough to step back and correct things if I’ve said something wrong or even just come across that way.

Pic is of my male Blaze phase goini

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the kind words and no I didn't take your post that way. I had just been reading several posts regarding these snakes and a few were obviously meant to bait me or Keith. I simply don't respond to those instigators anymore. I just thought your post was thoughtful and chose it as a springboard to clarify my own insights/feelings on the subject. Thank you for going out of your way to clarify your intent, I appreciate it.

Will

Hi Sean,

Sorry to chime in so late, but I wasn't able to get near the computer all day. You raise some very good points and I would certainly consider the reverse scenario as possible.

Heaven knows, I've seen pics of several wild S. GA easterns and thought to myself "$h!t, it's taken me a few generations to produce snakes that look like that!". I've seen pics on this forum of 5-7 scale width chains on wild GA easterns; and ones that have that peach wash that makes you think that they had a good amount of orange as a baby.

So it could be that the S. GA population of easterns are just much more variable than others (actually, we know this to be true), or it could be that this area is the eastern getula melting pot with some historical gene flow between typical g. getula and the more southern forms (which may be the reason for the incredible variability). Who knows??? Its kind of like that chicken and egg thing (which came first) for me anyway, because there is just no reasonable way of knowing for sure. I just feel lucky to have been able to acquire that pair of thin banded, orange GA babies from Kevin all those years ago that had all this potential for wild variability.

Good thread guys. Thanks.

Will

Good Morning everyone,... I have wandered this forum for a very long time, never to post, but I felt a stirring concerning the general overall "vibe" of this post. I have known Will Still for many many years,..and was fortunate enough to see the original pair when he purchased them. Over the years this pair have produced a lineage that still blows me away. I edged Will to post pics on this forum, knowing the kingsnake lovers out there would be as excited as he and I were over this marvelous project.At the time( when Will first started putting pics up) there wasnt an overwhelming chain crowd. These snakes however seem to spark a wonderful response from most. So,.everyone falls for the wildly patterned lineage, deposits are sent, babies are aquired. Then it seems, just like clockwork, some feel the need to find fault or discredit. People, in the grand scheme of things, we all are reptile lovers at heart. Is it enough for some( or the majority) that its a wonderful pairing that has sparked renewed interest, found new admirers, and captured quite a few hearts along the way? Must everything be a debate? I have mixed feelings every time I come here and see the purity debate going on over this line. Are they different? you betcha ! Are they chains? sure are! Did some distant long ago cousin crawl down a diff hole to find a slightly diff female? Who knows. I would just hope for all the expert debate,..people dont forget to remember the beauty of these creatures. Will,.... thanks for bringing such lovely and interesting snakes to all of us. Regards,Ken

Great thoughts....That male I found with 9 bands back in 98-99 was under a board with a female that had pencil thin bands, two snakes...one board, two entirely different appearances....Also I think it's a matter of what getula is "supposed" to look like in your mind. I think ones with white thin chains and a black background are unique looking but to someone in N. VA or MD they are the norm. I have had some people come down from the Northeast and freak out over the kings we have turned up, they were just typical chocolate banders with no chaining & solid brown belly. Georgia (aside from the draconian laws) is a great place to see wild getula...In one corner of the state you can find almost solid black animals (nigra intergrades) and in the opposite corner you find (Suwanne Kings) animals that almost look like Okeechobee Floridas, and everything in between...jet black to milk chocolate backgrounds...textbook chains to perfect cal king like bands...ivory white to golden yellow pattern, with heavy speckling or without....banding thats 1/2 scale to almost 10 scales wide.....solid dark black/brown to almost solid yellow/white venters....and according to the powers that be....all are considered pure getula.

Here's a typical chocolate snake

Hey Bart! You have any pics of wide banded specimens you've found?

I think I have some old prints somewhere of a couple of nice 5-6 scale wide ones, I'll see if I can find them this evening & scan them. But the two best ones, the nine bander & the suboc looking one didn't get photographed....kick myself everytime I think about the things I have found that never were photographed....youthful stupidity

B

All to well. Looking back at some of the animals I have seen and found I would love to have pics of now. The pines, kings, and just some of the interesting animals I have ran across.
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www.Wood-N-Snakes.com