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she has incredable color. she has grow slow. which is surprising giving her feeding responce. thanks for looking. Brendan

.. everybody has some kind of jungle boa. I guess maybe there is something to it but that particular aberrancy seems to pop up a lot in captive born boas. Here's a jungle-ish Peru redtail
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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

Everybody WISHES they had some kind of "jungle"...but,what they usually have instead is just a random pattern mutation...nothing too out of the ordinary there,IMHO...it's not hard to produce random aberrancies,the difference is genetic transmission.

.. I agree with that. But if the average buyer has little clue whether the animal he or she is looking at is a JUNGLE or just a common random aberrancy that looks JUNGLE what is the value of the JUNGLE line?

This is one of those things that if you have it and you're selling it (or you just paid good money for it) to you, it seems unique and valuable. If you are deciding what to spend money on or what boa to buy the JUNGLE phase seems less obvious.

I think it is a neat look but am not convinced there is anything special about it. Of course if you are saying somebody has picked out a few of these and inbred them for that phase and they are getting a whole lot of them then that is something special. I guess I have seen so many boas from different bloodlines with markings that (to me) look JUNGLE that the whole thing doesn't impress me at all. Wasn't there a recent posting about a Classified ad that claimed to be making more JUNGLES? The ad was pretty silly and the photos poor but that kind of thing illustrates wha5t I'm talking about, the JUNGLE look is confusing, il-defined and not uncommon.

Just my opinion.
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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

That's what I was refering to really...so many people want to make a morph out of things that really aren't anything special,it really is a buyer beware kinda thing...I know there's alot of people that refuse to believe the "jungle" boas are unique... I'm sure you can visit any import facility,and,pick dozens of aberrant boas...very few of them will prove to be anything special when put to the test. the person running that ad,is playing on people's gullability,and,the recent,increased interest in the "Jungle" mutation.

I totaly agree with you, thats why I posted this lately:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=112107,112107

I think there arent alot Jungles around that come from the orginal and unique Jungle Boa line orginated here in europe. Only a few people in the world have the fortune to work with this beautifull morph.

So totaly agree with you Gus - looks like alot bad guys smell the money and trying to sell animals that arent the real deal right now!! So be carefull when you are searching for the "real deal"!!

Jurgen

I think you should talk to Alan and see the boa that produced those babies before you start acusing him. In my opinion and alot of others his male is better than any other jungle we have ever seen. Or maybe you should talk to some well know breeders and see what they have to say about the Jungles in question. I can think of a few that say his are Jungles and the will prove to be genetic. Pete for one. But trust me they will prove out. Actually dont trust me who cares. Was it his low asking price that through you. Or do you just like to bash on other people for having what you dont. He only put that low price because they have not been proven. Next year the prices on those boas in question will go through the roof. I spent time yesterday talking to Alan and other breeders and have decided to buy 2.4 from that litter. Thanks Alan will contact you again on Monday. I will post better pics when I pick them up.
And by the way Alan produces some of the healthiest and pretty babies I have ever seen. I purchased and early 03 Pastel Jungle ball python male from him. And the little bugger is already breeding like mad for me. He already weighs 325grams and no i dont power feed. He has been breeding since 275grams and yes I have fertile eggs cooking right now.

Just stating a simple fact...I'll run it by again,and,maybe you can catch it too...If he can't trace that animals lineage back to the original Jungle bloodline,beyond a shadow of a doubt....then all the "thinking" in the world isn't going to make it one(doesn't matter what anyone tells you to the contrary,either.)...It may well prove to be something cool,it may look better than any jungle "you've ever seen"....but,to blatantly post those yet unproven animals as "Jungles" is pure B.S.(P.S. I know Alan personally,and,I'll be more than happy to tell him when I see him in Raleigh!) I'm not even opposed to buying some if they really look good,but,you can bet your @$$ I won't try to pass them off as "jungles" until someone shows me some believable evidence that there's a direct genetic connection!(probably not even then,it's this kind of B.S. marketing that creates uncertainty,and,paranoia,IMHO!) there's nothing wrong with making a comparison,but,there is something wrong with labeling them as a proven mutation,when,in fact,they are not??? (comprende?)

Just stating a simple fact...I'll run it by you and maybe you can catch it too...That it doesnt have to be proven to be a Jungle. Jungle is a pattern not a mutation....Are you going to tell me if I have a Albino and it doesnt prove to be genetic that its not an Albino...I didnt think you would...We'll if it looks like a Jungle then it is a Jungle...And by the way I didnt see anywhere in his ad him saying proven...To quote Alan's ad "WHY wait? Here is a GREAT opportunity for the far sighted Boaphile! Nobody knows what the genetics on these JUNGLES are so get some at a GREAT price before somebody figures it out and the price goes THROUGH THE ROOF!" We'll he tells you right there they are not proven...Im sorry you couldnt comprehend what he was saying...Maybe you should get the facts straight...And second there is no way for him or any other breeder to trace it back to the original blood...There could be more than one bloodline anyway. And if he was selling them as proven the price would be way higher...To quote you "doesn't matter what anyone tells you to the Contrary, either". We'll if you cant trust one of the biggest breeders then who can you trust??? (comprehend)correct spelling

Tobydog,

cant agree. The Jungle Morph is a mutation that works co-dominant, looks like you have to ask the breeder that works with the real deal!! It would be to easy if all jungle looking boas would be called Jungles. Jungles from the orginal line are proven to be a real mutation. So please ask around before you offend me, dude. Again, I'm working with the real Jungles, and yes I'm located in europe, I guess that would be your second question. Thats why I know alittle about that mutation!!

Good luck with searching the real fact.

Jürgen

Here I go again try to follow. Take balls for instance. There has recently been a type of albino found that is not simple recessive. The banana ball is dominant. So to make this short there doesnt have to be just one line of Jungles. And no they dont have to be co-dom. I am not saying his aernt co-dom either. But I will not say Alan's Jungles are proven but they will be. Its all a matter of time. He was not even asking that high of a price anyway. He was trying to let people get on the ground floor for a great price. And thats it for me.

"Film at eleven."... You've just erased all doubt that you had even the slightest idea what you were talking about...tell Vanna you'd like to buy a clue,AND,a "jungle",to go...heck,take out a second mortgage on the trailer,and,buy a dozen!

Tobydog,

I know that a few breeder in the US work with the orginal and "real" Jungle line, Pete is one of them. What I want to say is that potential buyer should be carefull these days from whom they buy "Jungles" - there are some out there that trying to sell animals that look like Jungles but without proven genetics and not from the orginal Jungle Line. I know what I'm talking about, I'm working with the real ones - thats just for the records because you told me to ask ppl that work with that mutation. So I can ask myself, right?

Jurgen

I for one am working with the proven Jungle's also. But for looking at Alan male there is no doubt in my mind and many other breeders that he is working with a new line of Jungle. I am so sorry that you'll europians hate the thought of us Americans having a new line of Jungle. Alan produced 3 real nice babies that almost look exactly like daddy. And I was just trying to get my point across. An albino is still an albino even if it doesnt pass that gene along. We'll there you go im done with this consevation. And no I wont sell you any of these beautiful boas when they do prove out. Sorry I have wasted my time on uneducated morons that dont know there a?? from there head.

Hey guy, no offense here so you dont have to start this name calling stuff here, or? I have some good friends in the US in would never hate someone nor any nationality. The ppl that know me knows that very well. So sorry dude, that didnt work.

Again, all what I was saying is that herper should be carefull from whom they get "proven" orginal Jungles, thats it not more not less. So take it the easy way and settle down bro.

Jurgen

hmmm .... wouldnt it be easier to use the term "Junglish" then prove it and then CALL it a Jungle? then to call it a jungle then get all this negitivity started over something that could have been avoided?i think the main point of the topic is that people can be easily diverted from the facts and possibly be swayed into thinking there buying a "proven mutation" when terms are used without the needed definate proof to substaniate the facts .one term i hatew to see is its a PASTEL!! nowdays if it has pink/orange its a pastel for sale ....terms get way to loose IMHO just to make a sale then down the road after breeding someone is pissed , someones reputation gets smeared all over something that could have been easily avoided by just stating the opposite . EX: would you rather buy spomething that the seller tells you is one thing then after yrs of growing waiting breeding then BOOM the day comes and you just have a lot of normals ?... or would you rather a seller tell you its just a nice normal that LOOKS like what they want it to be then same as above you work them and get the end result that they said it LOOKED like. i think that in itself would be more credible to both the sellers reputation and the buyers reputation. But to resort to name calling and just plain bad manners to the point of getting nasty in a open forum where your words are just as mighty as a sword ... think of it this way if you prove what you state here toby and these boas are a jungle line who would want to buy from you after they see your blatentdisregard and respect for others by name calling ? just something to mull over ...

PS for the record ... i dont have any jungles other then the name .... peace
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Buisnesses come and go everyday, what keeps you here is how you treated the customer the day before....

..

You told me that you wouldnt sell me any of your "junglish" boas when they are proved out. Np, you exspected that I would buy something from a person that shows such a character and cant handle constructive critic in a open discussion? Hell no, dude!!

You also called me jealous about anything, no I'm not a jealous person at all in all ways. But exspecially for you I give you an example that I also work with some nice little project, so eventually you get an clue that I'm a herper that loves what he is doing and never is, was or ever will be jealous about any herper around the world that produce quality, healthy and great looking animals!! Thats the diffrence between someone that is working with snakes 20 years and someone that isnt open for diffrent views and opinions etc. etc.!!

Dont want to waste anyones time, so I'll post some pics that speak more than any word can say:

Anyway, thats only a few things I'm working with and had on this PC right now....

Jurgen

Sorry, first multi-pics didnt work.

Jürgen

couldnt resist to lighten the tension lol
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Buisnesses come and go everyday, what keeps you here is how you treated the customer the day before....

haha, sorry dude - the first multi-pics didnt work so I started a new sub-thread!! My fault!! But ghost sounds good, or should we say super leucistic? lol

Jurgen

You told me that you wouldnt sell me any of your "junglish" boas when they are proved out. Np, you exspected that I would buy something from a person that shows such a character and cant handle constructive critic in a open discussion? Hell no, dude!!

You also called me jealous about anything, no I'm not a jealous person at all in all ways. But exspecially for you I give you an example that I also work with some nice little project, so eventually you get an clue that I'm a herper that loves what he is doing and never is, was or ever will be jealous about any herper around the world that produce quality, healthy and great looking animals!! Thats the diffrence between someone that is working with snakes 20 years and someone that isnt open for diffrent views and opinions etc. etc.!!

Dont want to waste anyones time, so I'll post some pics that speak more than any word can say:

Anyway, thats only a few things I'm working with and had on this PC right now....

Jurgen

NP
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Jaremy Douglas

.. I agree with that. But if the average buyer has little clue whether the animal he or she is looking at is a JUNGLE or just a common random aberrancy that looks JUNGLE what is the value of the JUNGLE line?

This is one of those things that if you have it and you're selling it (or you just paid good money for it) to you, it seems unique and valuable. If you are deciding what to spend money on or what boa to buy the JUNGLE phase seems less obvious.

I think it is a neat look but am not convinced there is anything special about it. Of course if you are saying somebody has picked out a few of these and inbred them for that phase and they are getting a whole lot of them then that is something special. I guess I have seen so many boas from different bloodlines with markings that (to me) look JUNGLE that the whole thing doesn't impress me at all. Wasn't there a recent posting about a Classified ad that claimed to be making more JUNGLES? The ad was pretty silly and the photos poor but that kind of thing illustrates what I'm talking about, the JUNGLE look is confusing, il-defined and not uncommon.

Just my opinion.
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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

that is a nice looking animal you have there. looks alot like anilmal i have seen at Jeff Jr. site out of fl. all though you are right about the aberrances. you want find many if any that look like this(F1 striped harlequin.)you have some smokin animals. keep up the good work. have a great one Brendan

From the Peruvian Schmeruvian line?*lol* (I couldn't resist Gus!)

She is a pure, 100% 'Jungle' boa.... worth thousands of dollars and very unique. lol, just kidding. Actually, I got her for practically free and gave her away to one of my friends. I personally think she is a very attractive BCI (better than most 'Jungles' that I have seen) and do plan on breeding her in a couple of years, but I would never say she is a 'jungle' boa. I simply feel that she is just a cool looking boa (mostly for her silver coloration) and if she has abberant babies, then lucky me (& my friend).
Thanks for looking,
Eric

That come with the "special glasses"?

Brendon,

That animal is awesome and I know that you are working with some very special animals...I would love to see more pics as your animals progress......As for the Jungles I think that what people fail to realize is that there is a SUPER JUNGLE and that the real Jungles are an inheritable trait....As we both know and have discussed many people out there have abherant boas and when showing them or worse yet selling them play on the people that have spent real money on the real deal Jungles. I have seen the ad that Alan posted and feel that he is using the publics inexperience with the Jungle mutation to sell his animals.....In closing I will say that I appreciate your respect of the Jungle mutation and respect the fact that you do not feel the need to misrepresent your already awesome animals!

Russ Lockenwitz
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Russ Lockenwitz
RL Reptiles
http://www.visioncages.com

I said that this animal was KINDA jungle looking(not a jungle.) as far as Alan's jungles i have never seen his adult or any of the babies. but before i called them jungles or anything else for that matter i would have proved them out. but thats just me.

hey russ, hows it going? hope its been a good year up there.
As for the Harlequins it is a proven inheritable trait. infact it has multiple trait to it(including but not limited to high color, striping up to 90% so far,and hypomelanisum.)although it was not proven by some big name breeder it is none the less proven by Tim and myself. we have only scrached the surface with these incredibly beautiful boas. give me a call sometime. we haven't talked in a long time.

thanks Brendan
bcibydesign.com