Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi All,
Back in the 70's I bred couperi that produced progeny that were an incredible pain in the butt to get to feed on anything but very small toads. I suspect that many of these feeding patterns are based on locality. By natural, albeit limited, in-breeding.
To make it short, when I got back into couperi decades later, I acquired stock from Robert Seib who are effortless to start out feeding. I have bred my male to unrelated females, and all of his progeny will start on thawed mice fuzzies or chick legs. EVERY single one without exception. I suspect my founders came from an area where baby rodents were in abundant supply.
Anyway, I will make sure to keep these genes in my colony, though I won't "line-breed" endlessly. I do believe that at some point, line breeding will cause problems, though I don't think we can compare snakes to mice, as warm-blooded animals will manifest defects much earlier on. I HOPE that as long as my babies are even distantly related to my original pair, I'll have these easy-to-feed hatchlings.
A word about repatriation:
With the problems caused by introducing captive animals back into nature, for example, desert tortoises, I don't think we'll see anything from our collections ever reintroduced to the wild. Repatriation would need to be accomplished from a totally closed captive colony of locality animals that have never been exposed to other animals, for fear of transmission of acquired pathogens.
If we don't preserve habitat, it's all a moot issue anyway.
My Best To All,
Steve B.

I agree that our snakes will likely never be the founding stock of a repatriated indigo colony in the wild.

They are, however, the founding stock of future generations of captive indigos. And whether by line breeding or "captive selection" those snakes will likely be robust feeders.

So...we can attempt to play "Mother Captivity" and create our own line bred good-feeding indigos, or let Mother have her way and kill off all of the poor-feeding lines while maintaining what meager genetic diversity we have.

Certainly both ways will persist for a few generations and then we'll have Drymarchon captivus, a snake whose future is locked in the genetic makeup of its past.

Interesting commentary, however, if we let "Mother" kill off all of the poor feeding lines, don't we end up basically the same in the end, anyway?

I like my way better. I get to watch all my babies grow and thrive. I'd feel guilty letting poor feeders starve. I used to bust my butt messing with toad eating baby Indigos, but I didn't lose any. "Mother" has little power in my basement!

Points are well made, and well taken. I just disagree.

i believe you have a point there steve. when i first became involved w/ cribo subs there were generally only wc adults to be found. these could be like night & day regarding their acquired tastes depending on where they came from. some eagerly took rats, most more stubbornly so. ie: the wc male yt shown below was never really a big rat eater when i first got him until i started dripping chicken juices/blood on his meals. perhaps he was a hen house raider back then which led to his capture? who knows but i think he'd probably eat a rock now if i chicken scented it. btw, he needs an eye cap removed, what do you charge for house calls? :>/

I never fed that particular YT or any of the other YTs I had back then rats. He was offered and ate only mice when he was here. I'm sure he would have eaten chicks or chick scented rats if those were offered. All of my YTs go crazy for chicks or anything that smells like chicks or chicken. Like you said, they'd probably eat a scented rock!

I certainly agree that captive bred for indigos, and most other species, will not form the stock for future reintroduced populations, for many reasons: risk of introduced pathogens, low success rates for repatriations.

Field studies for a number of vertebrate species have shown that only a very low level of in-migration is required to prevent harmful effects of inbreeding. Inbreeding should be avoided, but whether it is harmful to captive populations is much dependent on the genome of the species. Geneticists in general feel the image of inbreeding as extremely harmful is overblown; it is mainly a threat to some species and in some situations.

Craig S

Where were you guys when I put up the original post on Virtues of Inbreeding?

Steve has pointed out a trait that we all want to have in the captive Eastern population -- easily started on pinkies.

Like I was arguing, some traits in the wild population would not be missed by captive breeders, and are probably better that they be gone from the captive gene pool. Nobody wants to have animals that are picky about what they will eat when they are hatchlings.

I think that we have somewhat of a consensus about a couple things. Firstly, that the captive population will genetically diverge from the wild population, and that this is a normal thing, an expected thing, and a good thing. Some people lament about this phenomenon and to them I say (kindly) get over it, it is a normal thing, and there is nothing we can do about it anyways.

The other thing we have consensus on is that everyone seems to agree that the captive population will never be used to restock the wild population. Mike pointed out that captive populations have sometimes harbored pathogens that were not present in the wild population, and re-introduction of these animals caused problems.

Captive animals are selected for "desirable" traits by their keepers, and animals from different localities in the wild are crossed with each other. How many of you have known of breeders who crossed all-black Easterns with red-throat Easterns? The captive population is a mix-mash of animals from diverse localities that have been selected for traits that would not be beneficial for wild survival.

If we accept this, then we can see the wild population as completely distinct from the captive population.

The techniques of selective breeding and limited inbreeding can be used to enhance the captive population with desirable traits. The more desirable the captive bred animals are, the less value are poached animals. By selective breeding and inbreeding, we take poaching pressure off of wild populations. This is how, as captive breeders, we can influence the wild populations of threatenend and endangered animals.

It looks like my original post has gotten broken up. I suppose this is OK because it had gotten buried down below. I would still like to show that there are common fallacies about inbreeding. I would like to show how inbreeding can be performed in a good way that doesn't lead to gene loss. I would then like to show how, using limited inbreeding and selective breeding, we can uncover and propagate unusual and desirable traits in our captive population.

If anyone is interested in these things, I will continue with this in upcoming posts.

Robert Bruce.

Having discussed the posts made by Robert, with a few geneticist here at the university and with Robert himself, I have found that his ideas actually do carry some merit, as Robert is not speaking of repetitive inbreeding or "line" breeding, but “selective” breeding for specific traits. Of course, some inbreeding would occur with such a project, though on a limited basis and outcrossing would, hopefully, occur with the offspring produced from such. Genetics is not my target area so I sought answers from individuals harboring a greater knowledge than I on the topic and have found that limited inbreeding does not create that great of a danger in the way of physical and physiological anomalies, as Craig has already indicated. Unfortunately, there are some isuues associated with the limited inbreeding of D. couperi, as the species has been protected since 1973 and little wild stock has been introduced to the private captive population since that time. Another issue lies in there are no accurate historical records indicating the origins and lines of specimens within private collections today and the lack of such records, along with the fact that most D. couperi in captivity today originated from three or four breeders, means even supposedly unrelated specimens acquired from opposite coasts could be more closely related than we know.
While little in-migration is required to maintain genetic diversity among a wild population, few herpetoculturist working with D. couperi within the private community have access to specimens taken from the wild or even the first or second filial generation progeny from such…

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Hi Jeff,
I have only one comment to your post, and it might not apply to people out west as much as us east coasters. Although you are correct about protection on the books since 1973, here on the east coast, obvious wild-caught couperi were easily available until well into the late 80's. Reptile stores and swap meet vendors sold these animals in plain sight, and I was always stunned by their boldness. I do know that the reputation of the wild-caughts was that they were finicky eaters at times, and nose rubbers if not kept nice and cool and allowed to dig into a substrate and hide.
There was a PA breeder who did very fairly well breeding Indigos, and I doubt if any of his adults were related at all. I think out here there is decent genetic diversity. For now, anyway.

Hey Dan,
If you were serious about needing eye-cap help I'm here, buddy.
Drymarchon are easy with just your fingers, if you haven't had to do it yet. Shieldnose Cobras, now they're tough,with those tiny beady eyes. Or maybe it's just that my eyes are OLD!
Call me at home or at the Zoo if you need me.

thanks steve, i'm gonna try super misting him his next shed as he is extremely large & quite nasty. but if that doesn't work, i'll meet you at le' club duke's to steel myself 1rst. he hates my guts, thinks he can take me & i figure he'll feel pretty much the same way about you. if you get the call, make sure you don't eat any chicken before coming over......LOL!

Ok Dannio, here's the list of equipment needed to do this painlessly.

1-Kevlar Gloves/Gauntlets, available at veterinary supply websites.

2-Two long sleeve sweat shirts

3- welders mask or Full cage motorcycle helmet. I know you're in PA and Motorcycle helmets are hard to fine, so the welders mask should work

4- Tucans...

Have fun.

Doug T

>>thanks steve, i'm gonna try super misting him his next shed as he is extremely large & quite nasty. but if that doesn't work, i'll meet you at le' club duke's to steel myself 1rst. he hates my guts, thinks he can take me & i figure he'll feel pretty much the same way about you. if you get the call, make sure you don't eat any chicken before coming over......LOL!

I really don't see what all the fuss is about, I mean you probably out weight him 15 to 1 or more and he doesn't even have any arms or legs to hit or kick you with. Quit being a sissy and just go for it!! You just have to be a little quicker than him and show no fear. And as a last resort if he happens to get out of his cage, run like hell for the door.

just my 2cents Jack Hicks

actually we're just having some fun w/ the subject jack but this is a snake that definitely demands respect. a ltc wc yt about the size of a boa constrictor that has NO sense of humor & has seriously bitten me twice before. but if you'd like to go in his cage and try to 'out quick' him, feel free but you'll have to sign a waiver first. lol! hey dt, you're right, i cannot seem to locate a motorcycle helmut anywhere but maybe i can snag one from a wounded seahawk once it stops rolling around on the turf later this season on mnf. HAH! rock on big guy........d

Hi Dan, I don't even like it when I get bitten by a kingsnake so a bite from a Cribo Or Indigo would be way down on my list of things to experience in life. But at least its not a Cobra or Mamba where the bite is the least of your worries. Does this snake stay aggressive once he is out of his cage or does he settle down at all? By the way, what is the snake in the picture?

Honestly, just get a big wet blanket and throw over the evil beast!..Find head and just use the sticky side of some duct tape to roll backwards over it's eye cap and you don't need to get your precious little fingers endangered!!! And if that doesn't work, well, RUN!!!!!!!!!!
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

i wouldn't know jack, i don't handle him. he lives in an 8' x 2' x 18'', 1/4'' screen cage i built for him & he's perfectly calm & happy when left alone. but as soon as i go in there for whatever reason the treatening behavior starts & i know from experience that he's not bluffing. i could get control of him when he's in his hide & get the cap off but that would just anger/stress him no end. not into that. i believe super misting his enclosure will do the trick when the time comes w/out all the unnecessary excitement. i have some pretty good pics of him getting ready to let me 'have it' that i'll post asap......that's a salt & pepper bullsnake in that other pic. i'm heavy into pituophis. they only give me feeding bites but are at least apologetic afterwards. lol! here's a pic of charger's cage & a red bull that goes absolutely wild at feeding time but is a kitten at all other times.........

I grew up in South Dade County and finished grad school at FSU. I too recall seeing "Blue Gophers" for sale at some of the swap meets and flea markets back in the early 90's as well and I am sure a few still pop up. I also know that poaching continues to take place, as confiscated specimens still end up within academic and zoological collections and I feel many of the poached D. couperi make their way into the trade in some manner, which means there are some WC specimens floating around out there in private collections...

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947