Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Josh from Rarecreations@aol.com asked me to post these pics for him .. I think the pics speak for themselves, the IVORIES are the bomb! What's next??? Congrats on a cool clutch Josh.. Anthony McCain-McCain's Reptiles..

Nice! Looks like pied yellow bellies!

Oz
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OZZYBOIDS

why would these be paradox ivories and not pied?
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GOOSEBALLS

lamina1982@hotmail.com

Until he proves that they carry the Pied gene as well you cannot call them Ivory Pieds.. That may be the case but until he produces regular Pieds compatable with other Pieds then you can't assume they are the same .. The YB mother was just a normal looking YB and he isn't sure what other gene she is carrying or if she is carrying anything at all.. Odds are with 2 coming out that way that something is going on instead of just a random freak accident.. But he still has to breed it out.. Anthony McCain-McCain's Reptiles..

First off, they are very beautiful and I don't want to take away from their beauty and uniqueness, they are gorgeous.

But I disagree with the word paradox being used to describe them. What is so paradoxical about an animal that is a mixture of Pied and Ivory and it exhibits both traits?

Anthony ... are you saying that these animals came from YB x YB? And that neither one were known to carry the Pied gene? You state that the mother was a normal looking YB, but you don't say anything about the father.

David, what is so paradoxical if an animal that is a cross between a Pied and an Ivory has an Ivory head? It seems to me it would have one or the other, so having an Ivory head or a Pied head doesn't make it a contradiction, which is what paradox means.

When an Albino has a splotch of black, that is a paradox because an Albino is lacking in black pigment, thus black pigment on an Albino is a paradox. To say that every animal that exhibits some sort of anomaly is a paradox is excessive. And to say that an animal who is expressing a mixture of two genes is a paradox is well ... annoying.

I'm sure you all will want to jump on me for saying this so have fun, I just don't want newcomers who read this forum to be misled as to what constitutes the use of the term paradox.
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gail ....
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Snakebytes

Gail, from my understanding people were either confused or just using the term pied as a comparison to what they look like.
They are just ivories. I think from a yb x yb breeding, that produced a normal ivory, and these 2 paradox ivories. No pied gene involved unless it was completely random that 2 balls both had a mystery het pied gene.
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Mike.
-Baseball and Ball Pythons complete me.-

My one cent! When I saw these snakes the word "paradox" came to mind. I have had a number of paradox animals (boa and python).
In the pythons I have had (ball and Burmese)I have bred them upside down and sideways--and three things were clear.
1) there are what we call 50/50's-animals that look half and half, but it's genotype is hetero (Aa)--meaning a 50/50 paradox albino when bred to an albino produces 1/2 normal and 1/2 albino babies and no paradox babies. 2) there are what we call a little bit paradox that look 90% albino and 10% normal, but genotype is albino (aa)and when bred to an albino produces 100% albinos and no paradox babies. 3) To date the only paradox animal that has been proven (a simple recessive) originates from a sandboa that was a paradox albino imported almost 7 years ago. The black is linked to the albino gene and only albinos and snows can be paradox--meaning you can't have an axanthic paradox or a normal paradox.

Having stated that--if they are like the known python paradox animals it is possible that the normal headed animal is a "het" or yellow belly, and the white headed animal is a super or Ivory.

Now, what is VERY rare is that two animals hatched like this in the same clutch--that is the good news!! That would argue the point that there is something going on and much further breeding needs to be done--wouldn't it be so awesome if you could line breed these guys and make more of them, especially if you just had to breed them to a yellow belly to get more! Same for the super Mojave ghost--!! It is possible that there is something going on with these dominants that when bred to other mutations unusual things happen....

Re the pied thing--The original female from the wild would have had to be het--then when Josh bred her he would have had to pick the male baby from the clutch (that was a 50% het, but turned out was a 100% het) and then he would have been doing a cross that was approx a dh x dh so a 1/16, and then he would hit on that TWO times in a single clutch--and we all know only Ralph is that lucky!!

Congrats Josh--awesome animals!

Tracy

>>My one cent! When I saw these snakes the word "paradox" came to mind. I have had a number of paradox animals (boa and python).
>>In the pythons I have had (ball and Burmese)I have bred them upside down and sideways--and three things were clear.
>>1) there are what we call 50/50's-animals that look half and half, but it's genotype is hetero (Aa)--meaning a 50/50 paradox albino when bred to an albino produces 1/2 normal and 1/2 albino babies and no paradox babies. 2) there are what we call a little bit paradox that look 90% albino and 10% normal, but genotype is albino (aa)and when bred to an albino produces 100% albinos and no paradox babies. 3) To date the only paradox animal that has been proven (a simple recessive) originates from a sandboa that was a paradox albino imported almost 7 years ago. The black is linked to the albino gene and only albinos and snows can be paradox--meaning you can't have an axanthic paradox or a normal paradox.
>>
>>Having stated that--if they are like the known python paradox animals it is possible that the normal headed animal is a "het" or yellow belly, and the white headed animal is a super or Ivory.
>>
>>Now, what is VERY rare is that two animals hatched like this in the same clutch--that is the good news!! That would argue the point that there is something going on and much further breeding needs to be done--wouldn't it be so awesome if you could line breed these guys and make more of them, especially if you just had to breed them to a yellow belly to get more! Same for the super Mojave ghost--!! It is possible that there is something going on with these dominants that when bred to other mutations unusual things happen....
>>
>>Re the pied thing--The original female from the wild would have had to be het--then when Josh bred her he would have had to pick the male baby from the clutch (that was a 50% het, but turned out was a 100% het) and then he would have been doing a cross that was approx a dh x dh so a 1/16, and then he would hit on that TWO times in a single clutch--and we all know only Ralph is that lucky!!
>>
>>Congrats Josh--awesome animals!
>>
>>Tracy

What is so contraditory or paradoxical about two YB's het for Pied producing Ivory Pieds if that is what the case here is all about?

Wouldn't it stand to reason that those animals would be produced?

It seems to me that the animals produced are exactly what should have been produced, which to me is not a paradox or contradiction to what should have been produced.

I think the term paradox is abused in this industry ... but I guess that's just good marketing.

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gail ....
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Snakebytes

Gail absolutely correct if in fact the two yb animals are 100% het pied, it was my impression that the mom was an import yb and the dad was her son, and I did not hear any mention of the pied gene being in there. I am assuming that your take is that the parents are 100% het pieds and there was an ivory 66% het pied, an ivory pied, and a yellow belly pied? That indeed could be the case and hopefully future breeding will reveal the answer. Either way, Josh really is lucky!!!

Tracy

He certainly is a lucky boy
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gail ....
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Snakebytes

I guess Dan and Colette's Paradox Hypo Super Mojave's that they produced from 2 different clutches are actually Pied Hypo Super Mojavies right? LOL! Gail you should give them a call and let them know what they've got because you've obviously got it all figured out. LOL!

No need to get nasty ... I don't care what Colette and Dan call their animals ... my post was in reference to the abundant misuse of the term paradox.

So where is this rare locality that your female came from ... gee, balls all come from the same area in Africa, but yours is from some rare locality ... whatever ... I'm sick of the marketing scams that are abundant in this industry ... it's destroying the entire ball market ...

If you agree it isn't the correct term, why did you have Anthony post it as that ... whatever marketing scam works right .... and we all know that animals have been farmed over there in Africa for years ...
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gail ....
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Snakebytes

The locality that the mother came from was a new locality at the time, back in '99 when I got her. The Sutherland's imported many Ball Pythons from this area back then and I'm sure Dan could tell you all about them. They all had dark black heads and they all hatched out at 90-100 grams. Now 7 years later I'm sure that they've searched every inch in west Africa, but back in the 90's all imported Balls came from a fairly small area.

Thanks,
Josh Wolfe

Gail, I have never seen a Pied with a white head, but take a look at the paradox, one has a white head.

Dave

Wouldn't that be because the Ivory is being expressed ... which would be expected ... whatever ... you guys have your fun ...
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gail ....
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Snakebytes

First, Thanks for all the nice words from everyone. Now to clear this all up. They are not Pied Ivories. There is no Pied blood in these animals. The mother was imported many years ago from a rare locality, and this year I bred her back to her son to make the Ivories. Paradox is not the right term for these animals but that's the only term that we have to decribe them. A YB is not a pattern mutation so if they were Pied Ivories, then they would have the typical Pied pattern. These snakes do not have the typical Pied pattern. Only time will tell if they are genetic, but these animals are not Pieds. I'll post more pics after they shed.

Thanks,
Josh Wolfe

First, BIG congrats! Love the look of your ivories!

What do you mean by rare locality? Is that how they were marketed to you, or do you know any more about this local?

How do you know there isn't any pied blood? The mom was an import. Does it have to do with "where" you got her from? Unless you put the mom with a pied male, I don't see how you can say that there for sure isn't any pied blood.

I don't think these are ivory pieds/yellow belly pieds, but whatever they are I think they are awesome!

Congrats!
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Ryan Farris

one if them has the ivory head!!!dont all pieds have the normal head pattern???? thats why i would call it paradox..just my 2 cents.
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ball pythons,pastel,het&PH albino,het&PH hypo,PH pieds,PH clown,and norms!!
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my turn... i see three different snakes in those pics. one we can all agree is an ivory. the one with the ivory head but some patterning AND the yellow dorsal stripe I would consider "paradox". the other is strange in that it lacks the yellow dorsal stripe, has a patterned head, AND i notice the bright orange stripeing that pieds have. i know the breeder said no pied blood was involved, but that one looks just too much like a pied. anything is possible with these snakes anymore.

i love it

Actually they all 3 have the yellow back stripe that Ivories have. If you look close you can see it. The orange and yellow stripes that you see are from the yellow back stripe of the Ivory trait. I'll post more pics soon.

Not PIEDS. I see a few reasons these are Paradox Ivory's and not pieds, for starters we see one full blown Ivory, Then All pieds have normal heads, Ane I can see atleast one with the Ivory head...Ok and then the final and in my opinion main reason is the fact that the pattern is all wrong to be a pied, Most if not all the pieds I have seen have a blotchy pattern that goes from one side to the other, I see in these pictures that the Ivory's with the paradox pattern have a few patterned spots that only cover one side of the body. That is just the way it looks to me, to me they don't look the same. Thanks david
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WRONG... The only time I was WRONG is when I thought I was WRONG but I was really RIGHT.....LOL...LOL...LOL

Way to go Josh! Congrats Bro!! They are Smokin!!
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http://www.jasballpythons.com./

N/P
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Greg Power
B.O.A. Inc
boainc@gmail.com

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www.ballpython.ca