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Probiotics and some info if you are intersted

MAtPrice Aug 03, 2003 11:47 AM

I got to wondering yesterday about this probiotic and its benefits for bearded dragons. I know a lot of you use it and rave about its ability to get sick dragons back on the food. I never doubt the fact that something works when a bunch of people are saying that it works great. However I always want to know why. Maybe it’s curiosity or the science nerd part of my brain, and I always like to share my findings with others if they are interested and I think you guys are.

First what is lactobacillus, what is its function and why does it help people and possibly dragons get to eating again and maintain good digestive health. Lactobacillus is the general form of the name (or its genus) and acidophilus is the strain or species of bacterium. So the bacteria we are concerned with in this case would be lactobacillus acidophilus. Lactobacillus acidophilus helps reduce the levels of harmful bacteria and yeasts in the small intestine and also produces lactase, an enzyme which is important in the digestion of milk. L. Acidophilus is also involved in the production of B vitamins (niacin, folic acid, and pyridoxine) during the digestive process.

So that what it is and what it does. So why does it aid dragons to get back on food? From the research I have been able to do in the last 24 hours I have come up with this. Just like in humans, dragons have trillions of bacterium in the digestive track, most found in the large intestine, due to the fact that stomach acid kills bacteria pretty well. When an animal has either 1) gone on antibiotics for whatever reason or 2) become ill due to a bacterial infection, a few things can happen. Bacteria can be very determined little creatures and will fight for space and receptor sites. Also while antibiotics are pretty good at killing off bacteria they don’t touch yeast. So yeast is able to grow in the intestinal tract easily without the presence of bacteria in its way to stop it from spreading all over. One of the major problems with yeast, other than throwing off the natural balance of things in the gut, is when it is able to form so quickly and spread so rapidly they may convert to their more invasive form and actually embed themselves in the lining of the gut and secrete a digestive enzyme that helps them attach to the wall of the intestine that could actually allow holes in the lining, albeit very, very tiny ones. Just for your information, some of the enzymes that yeast secrete during this process are (hospholipase A2, catalase, acid and alkaline phosphases, coagulatse, keratinase, and secretor aspartate protease (15-17).
An interesting point to this is that some people who have had this problem, (it is called leaky gut syndrome) end up with food allergies because undigested food is able to leak out and he body views it an invader and sends the immune system out to get it. So once the holes are repaired which happens when the yeast is put back into its normal low concentration numbers the stomach wall heals itself, food stops leaking out and the body stops producing the antibodies against the particular foods and there is no longer a food reaction.
So here are a few conclusions that I have drawn from this research of which I tend to do much more of.

1) After antibiotics are taken some forms of bad bacteria and yeast are able to grow at astounding rates taking up space and causing damage to stomach intestine since dragons don’t eat food in captivity that may contain the bacterium they need to get the digestive track back in order we have to give them the bacteria that they need. The question is do they use the same bacterium that we do as humans or at least can we introduce a bacteria that works just as good. I think the answer to both these questions is yes. We would not see the benefits from using them if lactobacillus was not either naturally found in the stomach of dragons or at least work as well as what ever form of bacteria they had before we wiped it out with antibiotics.

2) Could the dragon experience a food allergy do to leaky gut syndrome and that’s why it doesn’t want to eat the greens and crickets we feed them. Unlike humans dragons have a pretty limited amount off food items to eat basically greens and crickets. Once we reestablish good bacteria in the stomach lining it fixes itself via cell division of the epithelial cells found in the intestinal lining the allergy goes away the dragon readily expects food given to it again.

3) Should we use other forms of good bacteria such as Bifidobacteria I say yes and I think this form of bacteria is probably more important than lactobacillus for the reason that Bifidobacteria thrive on vegetable fiber and on the complex sugars that occur in certain vegetables. These complex sugars, known as fructooligosaccharides encourages the growth of Bifidobacteria and discourages the growth of most undesirable bacterial species in the intestine and lowers the concentration of toxic bacterial enzymes in the large intestine. These enzymes , called beta-glucuronidase and glycholate hydrolase, are able to convert normal constituents of the stool, derived either from food or from bile, into carcinogens (chemicals which cause cancer).

A few thing of interest is that antibiotics hopefully in future will be a thing of the past. Scientist are trying to develop strains of virus that will attack and kill bacteria. bacterioPhages as they are called seek out bacteria and destroy it attacking only the bacteria they are programmed to and leaving all other forms of bacteria alone. This reaserch has been fought hard by drug companies who stand to loose trillions of dollars in revenue since their IMO useless antibiotics will no longer be needed and become a thing of the past.

Some of the concerns I have at this stage of my research on this is the possibility that by introducing this bacteria L. acidophilus it will grow and push out other forms of bacteria in the dragon gut that is also beneficial. I don’t know if that is even a possibility but I would like to as soon as school starts back start looking in to exactly what species of bacteria live inside the dragon gut and if it is the same as our and other animals.

IMO at this point giving dragons probiotcs is pretty safe and seems to for the reasons above promote good digestive health.

More to come on this subject as I delve deeper into this,

Mat Price

A picture of the bacteria we are talking here is L. acidophilus courtesy D. kunkel
Image

Replies (19)

CheriS Aug 03, 2003 12:51 PM

This is very good and accurate.

I do hope you plan on a future somewhere in the medical/research field!

Probiotic do restore the natural balance in the digestive tract, without it you have the complications of advance yeast infections accerating to fungal infections and root like structures penetrating the lining of the intestines, this breaks down the protective barrier between the intestinal tract and bloodstream, allowing many foreign and toxic substances to enter and pollute the body systemically.

This destroys a animals immune system, making it a cycle of more problems and infections, including reoccuring coccidia. Which when treated again is adding to the problem! Left untreated, these also can enter organs and the animals will die.

Even with successful infection treatment, many animals stop eating and waste away, the good bacteria is also a part of kicking off the digestive process, without them, the animals do not realize they are hungry. Cured of the initial problem, they die from complications of the exact thing that rid them of it...... Meds can and do cause what is called sterile gut, replacing those bacteria as they are killed with the coccidia or other bacterial infections and parasites is a simple solution to the immediate problem.

MAtPrice Aug 03, 2003 01:10 PM

Thank you,
I am a neuromuscular therapist at this time and I am finishing my BSN degree soon, it was my intention to go to medical school but now that I am married ect. I have decided to be a Physicians Assistant (doctor with out the title and independence) as a nurse and PA I will have at least a good job and I hope it will give me time to further my education in the medical research field I have a goal and that’s a PhD within the next 8- 10 years.

Everyone cross your fingers as I hoping to apply to Emory university and the not to distant future to PA school for post graduate study!!

Mat Price

CheriS Aug 03, 2003 01:49 PM

was offered a postition there with a very prestigious cardiac group and has been there now for about 15 years.

When your ready to apply, email me and I will put you in touch with him by email if you want.

Mattman Aug 03, 2003 01:08 PM

Thanks for taking the time to research that and posting it for us to read. I have in the past treated with antibiotics and used lactobacillus acidophilus, and bifidobacterium with great success. I was treating for coccidia at the time and during the whole 14 day treatment the dragon did not loose her appetite at all. A while ago you were going to look into coccidia, and ask a professor if crickets carried the ocysts causing coccidia outbreaks in dragons. I'm really curious about this topic as I've heard by so many people that yes crickets and other feeders can and do infect the dragons. Any info or light you could shed on this topic would be greatly appreciatted as this is one of the most common parisitic ailment in beardies. Many people and breeders only treat outbreaks or when the loads get heavy do too stress. Even herp vets say this.
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Mystical Dragons

MAtPrice Aug 03, 2003 01:18 PM

Yes mat I am going to work on that one as well.

I have dragons here that get weekly fecal exams and they 0 coccidia cells. once thing i am working on in the next few weeks is a collection of cricket feces and i am going to try and do a float on that sample to see if i can find coccidia eggs.

This research is going to take some time, as i have herd that crickets carry but I have never seen proof it. i have some experiments in my head that will take a while to manifest but i will be sure to write a full paper on it once i compiled every thing.

You guys will be the first to know.
I am even hopeful that I can use this paper as work towards my degrees.

Mat Price

Mattman Aug 03, 2003 01:28 PM

Thanks so much Mat. That would be extremely helpful info for us with dragons. I saw above you are trying to attand Emory University. I wish you luck with that. My cousin attended Emory and really enjoyed his time there. I went to Atlanta last year, and stayed with him for a while. I met a lot of nice people that attend classes there. Good Luck with school Mat, and thanks for the research into these topics.
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Mystical Dragons

LdyPayne Aug 03, 2003 02:01 PM

Very interesting post You may benefit from taking some herptology classes to get a better understanding of reptiles. Not sure if it would be helpful or not but may help improve your research. Deffinitely look foward to hearing about your future research projects and your results.

mkurgan Aug 03, 2003 02:10 PM

i am currently treating one of my beardies for coccidia. i understand that i should give probiotics after im done with the Albon treatment. Where can i get probiotics?

Mattman Aug 03, 2003 02:36 PM

You should give it during and after treatment. You can get AcidophiLIZ brand from pet smart stores. You can also get capsules or liquid capsules from a pharmacy. If it's powder just dust on salad or crickets. I personally like the liquid cause you know, and can see the dragon injest it from the dropper. Good Luck with the treatments.
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Mystical Dragons

CheriS Aug 03, 2003 02:50 PM

I think you will find that the cricket feces is clear of coccidia, to the best of my knowledge they can not act as an intermediate host to complete the live cycle, any eggs ingested by them can not mature and die off. But what you will find and I have seen, if you look at the legs under a mircoscope of a cricket that has been in with any infected reptile, food sources, water or surface that have eggs, the developing oocysts are attached to the legs of them, which is ingested by animals and liberates the sporozoites contained in them.

Oocysts that the vet is seeing under a mircoscope, they can not identify the species, they do not contain sporozoites yet.

Many people do not realize that Coccidia exist in almost any enviroment and most animals. Most are species specific but some can cross over species. One of the most commone vectors of transmission is water, either drank or used to spray on fruits and vegetables or run offs from agriculture. They have been found on new egg crates!!!!!

In small amounts any animals immune system can deal with them, its when you have conditions of crowding, poor sanitation, and stress that casues them to become overloaded and infections with coccidia become serious.

MatPrice Aug 03, 2003 03:22 PM

I am very certain that you are right Cheri that crickets can not serve an intermediate host to coccidia. My opinion (not yet tested) that IF coccidia cells are found on crickets that have not come in contact with any reptiles. Or reptilian feces than the species of coccidia that is found on them will not in any way harm, or even show up upon fecal examination of reptile feces. I feel that coccidia specifically the species that infects bearded dragons is very host specific and ridding the animal of that particular species as well as its environment, should in turn rid you coccidia unless the species of coccidia is somehow re transmitted to your animal.

This is what I am going to test. I have three dragons here that in over a month have shown 0 cells of coccidia and have each had numerous fecal exams performed by me. I can sit here and take the time to run each fecal and look as long as I want since I have no other patients ect waiting.

I think that I have already proven with the fact that I do nothing special with my feeders that if crickets carry coccidia it is not transmissible to dragons.

The next step is to prove whether or not the crickets I am feeding have some form of coccidia on them and to identify that species if they do.

CheriS Aug 03, 2003 04:28 PM

When you do isolate the oocysts, wait about 5-7 days as that is how long it takes for the sporozoites to develop to identify the species.(you probably already know this)

What you say is correct, but picture this..... many people feed out crickets in a tank and either put what is not eaten back in the cricket bin or it roams the tank for several hours and comes in contact with dragon feces then is eaten by the dragon. (that most likely does have oocysts in it). The ones put back in the bins are infected and later ate by the dragons also. Restarting the whole life cycle again.

Cleaning and good sanitary conditions are the key to avoiding and ridding coccidia in an animal.

Human hands can pass them to the dragon, handling other animals at shows can pick them up, they are very resistant and can survive on any surface for a long time. Egg crates at a show was checked and found to have many oocysts on them (species not identified) A dealer who had infected dragons can handle the bag or item you are buying and pass them to that, or in turn you handle it, walk in the door and pick up your dragon or grab a handful of crickets to feed them. ( you is used generic here, not really meaning YOU)

Now, most healthy dragons can deal with taking some in, their immune systems has no problem with them..... but one already sick, stressed. young or we also know, that inbreeding can reduce the immune system can have problems.

eva Aug 03, 2003 05:37 PM

Although I have not read any articles nor performed any experiments on such, but what you have written has been my thoughts on it.

Thanks for the insight.

CheriS Aug 03, 2003 05:47 PM

I know you are really busy with work and all, but it is so nice to see you pop in at times.....

less than two weeks to Daytona!!! Are you ready to rock Adam's Mark... I wonder if that same waitress is still there and she will give out dirty looks again this year.....

Oh and don't enable me.... LOL I DO NOT NEED HELP!
We have our Walkie Talkies ready to go ( just to keep everyone else from buying too much ya know )

I am bringing the pins this year to test the theory that when Kathryn starts talking, we all could hear pins drop ... hehe ..where you there when she was talking about torts and disease? I don't even have a tort and was entralled listening..... I so look forward to this year and also getting to meet Gunilla. *hugs*

What a dangerous group we have become..... LOL ..To each other!

Thera Aug 03, 2003 09:41 PM

Where do you obtain bifidobacterium? I feel stupid asking this :P

Mattman Aug 04, 2003 12:24 AM

Actually Bifidobacterium was one of the ingrrdients in a probiotic I got at the pharmacy. The capsule is powder filled and contains both lactobacillus acidophilus and bifidobacterium. The company that made them is Rexall and it is Acidophilus Blend Digestive support.
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Mystical Dragons

barker109 Aug 03, 2003 02:22 PM

Mat, that was excellent information. I look forward to reading more of your research.
Thank-You
Karen

B22 Aug 03, 2003 03:16 PM

hhhhhhhhh

eva Aug 03, 2003 05:11 PM

-eva-

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