Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Has anyone ever actually seen, with their own eyes, a Scarlet King and an Eastern Milksnake mating? Has anyone ever seen a Scarlet King laying an egg that hatched a Coastal Plains Milksnake? I'm finding it very hard to believe that a Coastal Plains Milksnake is the result of a mating between an Eastern Milksnake and a Scarlet Kingsnake. More likely would be an Eastern X Red Milksnake. I've seen pictures of many Coastal Plains Milks and at least half of them look much like a Red Milksnake. Just wondering if I'm the only one who has doubts.
Ron

In the northern part of their range they look like colorful easterns a little and in the southern part they look more like scarlet kings. It's not hard to beleive.
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Steve W.

i can't say what others might have seen.i tried breeding the two(sk's and easterns)before with no luck.i bred some coastals this year,and as i've been told,they 'bred true';none look like easterns,none look like sk's-they all look like their parents-temporalis...but supposedly 3 or so others have succesfully bred a sk male to an eastern female....what i was told recently from a very reliable source i won't name here now was basically,the northern coastals-from nj/md/de-are simply not related to sk's at all....meanwhile the southern clade-se va/ne nc-while appearing to be 'fairly typical temporalis morphologically,have yeilded sk-like mitochondrial dna sequences so far'...furthermore,these same herpetlogists are claiming sk's are really not closely related to triangulum at all(apparently they are most closely related to the mexicana group)...so it apparently we're looking at what sounds now like a naturally occurring hybridization(two seperate species!) going on in se va/ne nc...north of there on the coastal plain,you have temporalis,until you get to s/central jersey where they start to show obvious evidence of integration with the nominate,eastern milks(see two pics below-one i own that was captive bred,and a baby found this year-both are from the area of integration in the west side of the pine barrens)....but why l.t.temporalis was ever deemed an invalid subspecies-considering,and esp.compared to,all the other milk subsp. across the country-that,i guess,is completely over my head.

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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

To change the name of things. You have to appeal to the International Comission on Zoological Nomenclature (http://www.nhm.ac.uk/hosted_sites/iczn/) who review the data on both sides of the argument and then make a decision based on some complex rules. Try and read them and you will get a head ache. I suspect that no one has applied for a supression of the L.t.temporalis name.

Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

I'm not implying that temporalis don't exist or don't deserve their name. What I'm saying is that Scarlet Kings are not one of the parental subspecies. What I'm saying is that the Eastern has intergraded with one or more other (than Scarlet King) milksnake subspecies to produce the temporalis.
Ron

OK, I see. But, if temporalis is a hybrid then it cant have unique subspecies definition, it would have to be L.t. something X L.t. something else according to the rules.
Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

My belief is that temporalis is an intergrade between the Red and the Eastern MS which are both the same species. A hybrid would be the result of two different species mating.
Ron

A hybrid is also a cross between two valid subspecies. So a cross between a red milk (L.t. syspila) and the eastern (L.t. triangulum) would be a hybrid. A cross within a subspecies (or species) but from different locales or populations would not be a hybrid.

Under the current classification, all milks are classified as Lampropeltis triangulum ssp., only the subspecies distinction varies. So by the "only a corss between species are hybrid" theory crossing a black milk with a red milk would not be a hybrid. I dont think anyone would believe that. I also think that this group is going to have some major revisions soon.

Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

What studies have you done to come to that conclusion?
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Steve W.

Thanks for your response and input. I still say they look more like Eastern X Red milksnake intergrades and I agree that Scarlets are not related to Milksnakes at all. In fact, I think they are more closely related to Scarlet snakes, but I'm not a scientist. Once again, is there anyone out there who has actually seen an Eastern mating with a Scarlet King or seen a Scarlet King lay an egg that hatched into a Coastal Plains MS?
Thanks - Ron

...actually may stimulate some thought...now if some others would jump in it could really get interesting.but i know people get sick of this topic,as it comes up with regularity on this and other forums.but taxonomic changes are brewing,it seems...now i am not claiming to be a geneticist,herpetologist,biologist,zoologist,etc...yeah i actually am just really into this for fun(not that $$$ would be a factor to draw anyone in their right mind into most of those professions,sadly)...but ronflett-again,the reason you see 'red milks'/syspila when you look at a temporalis is because they are quite possibly exactly that,an eastern pop. of 'red milks' long isolated(thousands of years) on the mid-atlantic coastal plain....add to that the fact that they do integrade with easterns to the north,and there you go.....now,about the cemophora connection,scarlet snakes-why do you feel the two are so closely related?true they are lampropeltines,but so are pituophis,rhinocheilus,arizona,stilosoma,pantherophis(f.k.a. elaphe),senticolis and bogertophis(green and trans-pecos rats),and of course all the kings and milks.i guess which of the above are closest related to which,at this point could vary as much as the number of people you ask.just curious to hear your reasoning...justin

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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

I'm not real committed to the Scarlet Snake theory, just a possibility that I was throwing out there because I'm not very convinced that a Scarlet King is actually a kingsnake. I had a small female a few years back and she wasn't very kingsnake-like in her demeanor, only in her color and pattern (but so are several others.)
Once again, has anyone actually seen a Scarlet King mating with an Eastern MS or any other king or milksnake?
Ron

In years past this was investigated several breeders including myself. Coastals will breed with easterns and SKs and SKs will readily breed with easterns. Results were pretty perdictable and the latter group's (SKs X easterns) offsring looked just like coastals.

That is pretty close to what I've heard however I think that in the end Roger C. got it mostly right years ago. basicallt temporalis is valid, southern populations seem to have integrated with SKs and northern populatins with easterns.

One thing that I think you can not infer from captive breedings is that these breed true. We're currently several generation in line breeding these guys to what we believe a specific locality should look like. Wild populations however apear to be quite variable.

Thanks for all the input. Let's just drop the whole thing. All I was looking for was an answer to the first two questions; "has anyone seen with their own eyes an actual mating between an eastern and a scarlet king?" and "has anyone seen with their own eyes, a scarlet king laying an egg that hatched into a coastal plains ms?"
Ron