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if it looks like poop and it feels like poop and it smells like poop, and it tastes like poop, then its most likely poop.

Below someone mentioned meerkats as social in a way monitors are not.

What does this remind you off.

Now please, I am not saying argus monitors are as social as meerkats. Or anything close. Not from this pic. But this picture does bring up some curious questions, like, WHY did this pair do this? Why did they do in right next to eachother? Why isn't one hiding in a hole and the other investigating me? If they are not social or in this case, a bonded pair(yes, they seem to want to be attached at the hip). Why are they next to eachother. obviously, they do not have to do this.

This pose is common with monitors, all species I have worked with do this head thing. Mertens actually do this while suspended in water. In sea terms its called porpoising, I believe. So whats it called on land.

s. The This I am referring to is, the angle of the heads. They are parallel and in unison. This is common common common with all monitors we have. It reminds me of some birds that tend to pose in a very similar manner.

This is merely one indication of behaviors that seemed to have been overlooked.

Many have seen this pic from me before, I always get very positive comments from this pic. I have a whole series of them.

So I ask, why are they doing this, and where did they learn it. Surely I did not teach them this. Cheers

He is another popular pic showing the same behavior. And please, anti social folks, all things monitors do IS BEHAVIOR.

So I ask again, in this giant cage, why do they choose to be like this? Cheers

Please forgive me, but I do not live where monitors live, so I only visit those areas. I get my real data from animals nearby. While these are not varanids, they are related and as close as I have nearby.

Gilas are not known to be any more social or gregarious then monitors. So its kinda like red delicious to granny smith apples. Ok maybe a bit farther apart then those. But far closer then comparing to polar bears and king cobras.

Here we have two gilas, a pair perhaps???? yup a pair of males. hmmmmmmmm two males. Yet here, they are posed in the same direction, same angle, etc. Same as the monitors.

Now this pair is again in the same position, and yes, this is a sexual pair.

both of these pairs spend much of the year in groups, all living in the same hole or in very nearby holes. Both groups number 8 to 10. Once breeding season approaches, they move a small distance from eachother and pair up. They will stay with way for many many weeks, to year-a-round.

Here we have a very dark, very gravid female, with her lite colored male. Once they are in shelter, they no longer need to pose in the same position. look at her belly scales, they are very distended. So why are they together weeks after copulation?

I seem to remember reading that social behaviors include behaviors that provide safety to the group. I wonder is this is the case here?? Again, I am not saying anything, I am simply showing untouched animals in nature doing what the books say they do not do.

To make it clear, I have seen monitors in nature do the exact same behaviors. Please understand, with gilas, its very easy to seek up on them. But with monitors, its not. No, not easy at all, not even desert types. So I do understand the difficultity in photographing this, but it does not mean they do not do it. It also does not excuse those folks not seeing this.

As I have posted many times, I found monitors sitting in the same pairs, in the same circumstances. Cheers and please above all enjoy the pics

Please don't get mad, I just want to carry on a discussion with you. It seems like maybe there is some favorable habitat for these animals, so they all come together to congregate. Perhaps the area has a lot of food and a lot of nice hiding places.

First, yes, there could be, may be and all such possibilities. But your example is not the case. Where these animals live. There are millions and millions of nice places.

They can pick anyplace they like yet they don't, they pick to be around eachother. Sir, that is the point.

In this pic, there are hundreds of gilas, and they are not evenly spaced in any part of the habitat. They are in the rocks and in the flats. But they are not spaced to fill the habitat.

They are in groups within this habitat.

ALso consider, science here is really letting you people down. They already know and understand different ways reptiles utilize a habitat. If they really wanted to teach us/you something. They would have explained that there are resident animals within a population and trasient animals in the same area and population.

The resident individuals stay in a certain area, and transients move thru out the area. This is true for monitors and gilas and torts and rattlesnakes, and utas, and the list is long.

Sir, science already knows this.

But our fellas here do not mention anything that could possibly lead the reader to believe there are other possibilities then what they preach.

So back to your feeding congregation. If you feed them on a regular basis and the same individuals return often, they are most likely resident individuals. If an individual shows up once, then is not seen again or is seen somewhere else, its most likely a transient individual.

You can measure the resident individuals by counting them. You can then feed at another location and see if new individuals appear, or onces from the other feeding area. You can keep this up and get an idea, of whats in an area. WITHOUT TOUCHING them.

In most cases, you will find one heck of a lot of resident individuals, and they do not travel all that far.

Cheers

My doreanus pair will always sleep together even though there a dozen of other hiding spots.

I've seen large group of water monitors together in the wild. The locals were feeding them scraps of food everyday, so they all congregate where they are food. They were feeding them almost like ducks. They throws scraps of meat and fish in the stream and the monitors come to feed on it, and right by the feeding site there were open sandy banks for basking where they could warm themselves up to digest there meal. I'm not trying to say that you are stupid, but it seem sometimes they congregate where they are food and lots of favorable habitat...like warm sandy banks to bask after a nice meal. It would seem that Komodo dragon will do the same thing. After there's been a kill, they tend to congregate and feed on the carcass. Please don't get mad at me. I'm just trying to open a discussion because your photos are very interesting, and I love to discuss them with you like mature adult, if you don't mine.

you may want ask, were did they come from and after they left, where did they go?

The fact that they were there, meant they were nearby. How close? did the leave in all different directions? Did they come from all different directions?

My bet is, you do not know the answer to any of those questions.

The same is true for most people, they do not investigate any further. I could care less that they come to feed, the question is all the rest.

Remember, there are two sides to a coin. One side does not make the whole coin. Cheers

>>I've seen large group of water monitors together in the wild. The locals were feeding them scraps of food everyday, so they all congregate where they are food. They were feeding them almost like ducks. They throws scraps of meat and fish in the stream and the monitors come to feed on it, and right by the feeding site there were open sandy banks for basking where they could warm themselves up to digest there meal. I'm not trying to say that you are stupid, but it seem sometimes they congregate where they are food and lots of favorable habitat...like warm sandy banks to bask after a nice meal. It would seem that Komodo dragon will do the same thing. After there's been a kill, they tend to congregate and feed on the carcass. Please don't get mad at me. I'm just trying to open a discussion because your photos are very interesting, and I love to discuss them with you like mature adult, if you don't mine.>>

You made some great points there. There are multiple populations of V. salvator in Bangkok (Urban salvators). The ones I observe most often are the populations that live around the Dusit District. Within a few hundred square metres, multiple specimens can be seen on any given day. They have very little fear of people which makes long term observations easy. The only place that they come together is in the parks, where there is picnic scraps to be found and trash to rummage through (large food sources); the only other place that I find them in numbers in the city is around the King’s palace in Dusit. Something that these parks and the King’s palace have in common is that they are the only places where they can get out of the water easily. They eat and move on. I go there at least once a month and spend a day there. Never has any monitor ever sought the company of another, as you would expect social animals to do. Only once have I seen one monitor come up to bask along side another. The first one came to bask on the platform from the direction of the city and was there for about 50 minutes. The second came from the direction of the river and basked about 20 minutes before departing in the direction of the city. The first one departed after its 50 minute basking session and headed in the direction of the river. No concentrations (groups) are found on that river, the Chao Phraya River, in that area of Bangkok

These are the two that shared the floating platform together. They came from separate directions and left in different directions with no interaction or recognition- not very social! What happened to the group thing? What would make them share the platform together? Maybe it was because it was the only place to leave the water for almost 300m in either direction. What becomes completely obvious when they are observed in an urban setting that has few to no places to hide is that you are able to observe their behaviour long term- no pairs, no groups. I would be most happy to give people directions to these places so they can see for themselves. Is there any population of free wild monitors that can be observed engaging in social behaviour? NO.

In the swamps of the central flood plains, during the Rainy Season, they spread out because of favourable, wet conditions. During the dry season, they have to congregate at permanent bodies of water, because they will not leave more than a couple hundred metres away or so from it. For a couple of months they are in fairly close proximity to one another, in comparison to the rest of the year, but they never actually come together or ‘hang out’ together, which is definitely something that you would expect in a social animal. They do not travel together; they do not bask together; the only time that I have seen them come within sight of each other during the dry season was when one chased another one off; however, if a large food source is available they will tolerate each other’s presence, but it usually goes biggest to medium sized. Small individuals are not seen at these events. These are rather tense encounters where all but the biggest individual present is very wary of all the others and any movement they make. If they were truly social, they would just all come together and feast.

(The one that was chased up the tree during the Hot (Dry) Season- less than social behaviour on the part of the one that chased it!)

On the other hand, I have had a number of V. salvator in captivity since moving here. In February, I released 3 specimens, one was acquired as a juvenile and the other two were acquired as hatchlings. The two acquired as hatchlings engaged in clasping each other in the water and were most often together. They were released not too far from my home, a few hundred metres away). I have seen both of them. They no longer hang out together. One took up residence for a while near my home a couple months after release, but has since moved further out in the field. I have another pair that will be released next year. So, we will see where that leads, but I am willing to bet that the result will be the same.

Cheers,
Michael

But I do not see what you do. Only I will take the time to explain what I see. And I will not deny or discard what your observations are. I will give another viewpoint.

In the picture with that floating thing. That appears to be a pair, the female on it, the male in the water next to it. If I found that, I would consider that a good candidates for study. They have possibilities. I would not make to much about what they are doing on that floaty.

The other pic of one chasing another up a tree, yes, that is very commonplace and practiced amoung social critters. If you will notice, its a young animal. It most likely is a transient and is being put in its place. Also consider, if the chaser wanted, it could very easily keep chasing that animal and kill it. Why didn't it? sir that is a good question. But I am guessing it did not. I am guessing it chased it up a tree and left it there. That is simple labelling. The little one is being reminded of its place. do I dare say colony/group.

Also it surely does not mean the little one is not part of the group or colony. I believe you will read about this stuff in many of Jane Goodalls books and see it in her films. (i helped do some work for her)

The real concern is, not what they are doing when you saw them. But what they did before and after you saw them. If you notice in the pics of the gilas, they had just emerged from their hole. The whole group lived in one hole. Then after they warm up, they will move in seperate ways and accomplish their needs, then return to this hole. Sometimes they spend the night in smaller less secure temporary holes, then return a day later or two. Back to the group. Instead of fighting forth and back. There are so many good questions to ask.

I feel the error is that you assume what they did after they left, you do not know what they did. Sir, those are two different things. I was under the impression that to assume in science is wrong. But what do I know.

I suggest you find out where they emerge from and go back to. If you do not break their defenses(harass them) they will often return to the exact same hole or hollow, or use a small series of holes and hollows. Sir, that is the start to learning what they do, its not the end. Once you find their homes. You can start to see what their lives are like.

I do understand, its very easy to find a monitor or a lone gila, I do not make to much of it, until I know what it did before and after I saw it. Finding lone animals surely does not define any animal, social or otherwise.

You see, what I gripe about is, people making so much from a monitor on a floaty or limb. I hope you do find where they go.

I also understand, seeing that with larger monitors is not an easy task.

To help you a little, I have studied many reptiles in nature, in most cases, they follow a basic model. Actually there are several models. Each model has parts. Once you know these parts, then it makes the hard species much easier to study. I think monitors are amoung the hardest, because of their name. MONITOR, they do know whats going on around them.

I do thank you for the pics, as it gives me and you, something common to talk about. Also understand, now that you have gone this far. I would not respect you if you, "believe" anything I say. I would respect you if you heard what I said, then investigated it. To try and find it, in nature. Or to test it in captivity. Not to believe it.

All I ask, is to look for something you obviously have not looked for.

About being social. Let me explain(something you never asked for) First, all standard methods of study, are not designed or monitors(or any reptile for that matter). All models for behavior are not based on monitors(reptiles). All terms and defintions are not based on monitors(reptiles). Lastly, all formulas and math, were not developed for monitors or any reptile. So how on earth could monitors fit any term, defintion or model? They cannot and they won't. So yes, I do understand, they do not fit the extreme mammal(hoofed stock) defintion of social. But neither do most other types of animals that are not hoofed stock. Heck, humans don't fit that model either.

But because they don't fit a model thats not designed for them. Does not eliminate varanid behaviors that are social like, by definition and more importantly, by action.

Let me say this, it surprises me to no end, that all you fellas can do is argue about whether monitors are social or not. I would have expected a much more sound and logical line of questioning. For instance, How did FR find all those monitors, all those weird ones, that do not appear to be discribed. All those variations and different color morphs. How did he do that? Specially because he(fr) understands so little about monitors(by your defintion)

How could I find all of that, no one else has those pics. Sir, the fact that I did and did so in such a short time, hints of a different set of varanid understanding. Yes, I would be far more concerned at that. Cheers and thanks for the pics.

This is definitively a case of pair bonding, this dominant males knows this female well from the behaviour you described, she’s probably part of a harem within a territory.
He will run other males away but not harass his females.

In breeding times he will visit them one at a time and copulate, they know him and often will only be receptive to him. This is social.

If you can watch them regularly in all kinds of whether throughout the year, I am sure you will see things that are not obvious to you now.

Pleas post again about your observations.

>>This is definitively a case of pair bonding, this dominant males knows this female well from the behaviour you described, she’s probably part of a harem within a territory.
>>He will run other males away but not harass his females.
>>
>>In breeding times he will visit them one at a time and copulate, they know him and often will only be receptive to him. This is social.
>>
>>If you can watch them regularly in all kinds of whether throughout the year, I am sure you will see things that are not obvious to you now.
>>
>>Pleas post again about your observations.

Interesting, but one thing that you and FR overlooked is that both are FEMALE!!!

A different picture of this same monitor was posted on an earlier thread about water monitors- you know, the one that was deleted after FR made that ridiculous comment about water monitors not wanting to be wet. It should be posted in a thread elsewhere of this same individual monitor (the dominant shemale?) if you care to look through the archives, then even you and FR should find it painfully obvious what sex it is.

Cheers

show me this is a female.

post the other photo.

haha no you misunderstood him. He's the scientist. He wants YOU to do all the work and find it yourself...

FR: “In the picture with that floating thing. That appears to be a pair, the female on it, the male in the water next to it”

Yes, appears to be, but is not.

Jobi: “This is definitively a case of pair bonding, this dominant males knows this female well from the behaviour you described, she’s probably part of a harem within a territory. He will run other males away but not harass his females.
In breeding times he will visit them one at a time and copulate, they know him and often will only be receptive to him. This is social.
If you can watch them regularly in all kinds of whether throughout the year, I am sure you will see things that are not obvious to you now.”

Hahahahaha. Sure. Of course you have seen this in the field in this part of the world. In fact, I do not even think that you have seen this on TV?

Well, here she is close up, no more than 3 metres from me. As you can see, she is a very old individual by the condition of her skin. First of all, she is far too short to be a male for her age. Old large males of this region are always over 2m in length to a maximum of 2.6m and one of this age should be at least 2.3m; she is at a minimum over 60cm short of that. Secondly, her snout is too narrow to be a male of this age. As male V. salvator salvator grow older, their snouts are significantly broader than that of females. Thirdly, males, more noticeably old V. s. salvator males of this region become darker between the banding with the very old males appearing mostly black. As a reference to this, the largest monitor lizard ever found was a 321cm V. salvator salvator (same subspecies) which was described as being completely black. Every old large male monitor in the Chao Phraya River basin (which Bangkok and its surrounding areas is a part of) has been like this. To think that this is anything other than a female would show complete ignorance of this population, but then again, the only ones that would probably question this are the ones that live more than 10,000km from the closest wild V. s. salvator population and have most likely never seen a population of these in the field.

Cheers,
Michael