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thought I'd post a couple pics of one of my Speckled Bulls, Ron

sorry about that double post, heres another pic, Ron

sorry about the double post, heres another pic.. Ron

Ron,

First before I start let me say that is an awesome snake. The color and what little pattern it has is really neat. But it is not a speckled or salt & pepper bull snake, your animal is something completely diffferent and in my opinion much nicer than a speckled or salt & pepper bull. Where did he come from and is he pure bull. The only thing that I have seen close to him were some intergrade sonoran gopher/southern pine /bull crosses several years ago at Wayne Hills Orlando show. Awesome snake tell us some more about him.

John Cherry
Cherryville farms

John,
Thanks for the comments, its always nice to get feedback. I have a pair and both look the same. I purchased them last year from Gary Ballem. He sold them to me as Speckled Bulls. In any case they are very nice animals. I would love more feedback from anyone that has information to share. thanks Ron

Here is a picture of my male speckeled bull, het for whitesided, hypo, and axanthic (a different line than the miami county).

"My bullsnake project has been my area of
concentration for many years even though I have bred numerous other colubrids and boids.
The project began with the purchase of albino bullsnakes the first time they
were offered in the private sector. I was the first, along with Craig
Trumbower the same year, to produce them outside of a zoo. I then added the
"white" or anerythristic line originated by Norm Dam. a few years
later (I think about 1991) I purchased a subadult bullsnake wild caught in the
Omaha Nebraska area which appeared patternless with dark spots in the center
of every light colored scale (speckled). I was fortunate that this animal
also carried a gene for axanthic. The anerythristic line carried the
hypomelanistic gene. In addition, the anerythristic line is a reduced
pattern morph. So I now have 2 pattern morphs along with 4 color mutations
mixed in. I have produced to date, on a limited basis, about 16 different
unique morphs. I have produced as many as 8 morphs in the same clutch. It is an exciting project for me and I know there are still many more morphs to come" -Gary Ballam

They are pure bulls, originating from Omaha, but also have Iowa and texas blood in them. Hope this helps!

>>axanthic (a different line than the miami county).

Ya know, I'm starting to doubt that this line is a true axanthic line. Wait until your's and Shannon's grow up to see what I mean. These things have a little bit of cream and almost-yellowish coloration to them that comes in with growth (like a normal bull increases in yellow with age). I don't know what they are really, but I think of them to MYSELF as hypoxanthic snakes. I think it is too early to call them that definitively, though.

The oddball and not the norm seems to be the ones that retain crisp white backgrounds like axanthic Sonorans, or corns, or Ballam's line or... That is definite.
KJ

My male is solid black and white, while the other does have a slight tint of yellow. Time will tell how they turn out. If they are named incorrectly, is it to late now? We all know snow and ghost is too late to save. Ugghhhhhhh

They are called "Speckled" by the originator (Gary Ballam) as you mentioned. They are descended from a WC speckled bullsnake. I believe the whole story and it checks out completely. I'm not COMPLETELY convinced that the original WC bullsnake was not related to an escaped patternless Florida Pinesnake, though. Hets have a very consistent blotch count that is much higher than those seen in Florida pinesnakes, though. Add that to the unlikeliness of an escaped mugitus reaching and breeding in the area where the bullsnake was found, and it is VERY unlikely that these things are resulting from a WC hybrid. I honestly believe that my doubt is just paranoa with no basis. I'm waiting to see what my group of babies turn out looking like. If the blotch counts are constant, then the chance of these being hybrids is almost nil in my opinion. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Y'all know what'll happen to them if I start to think that they are hybrids.
KJ

The original animal was wild caught in around 1991. Would there be patternless pines kept in collections at that time?

I'm not sure on the first year when patternless southern pines were first produced, but it is a natural occuring morph that is common in some areas of the wild, so they have been around a long time. They were probably a LOT less common back then than they are now, though. Very Good point!

Wouldn't we ALL love to see some photos of the F1 and F2 generation....lol. I REALLY had doubts about these at one time, but I think I was wrong. I'm witholding final judgement until my 5 females from this bloodline start breding.
KJ

I thought those might have come from your line. You really need to change the name though, it does not do justice to the animal. I remember when you and Craig got the albinos and started after the snow ( a few days ago,lol ). As far as the different morphs, after breeding it into the albino line how did you get where you are now. The animals you are now producing seem to be even more variable then they were back then.

Take Care and stay in touch,

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

Gary didn't post anything. We were just TALKING about Gary. I personally think speckled is an OKay name. Better than "patternless" since they DO have some sort of pattern.

The original speckled turned out to be carrying a het gene. Breeding that animal to a Trumbower albino, a white-sided, and a hypo gets him where he is now.

KJ

>>I thought those might have come from your line. You really need to change the name though, it does not do justice to the animal. I remember when you and Craig got the albinos and started after the snow ( a few days ago,lol ). As far as the different morphs, after breeding it into the albino line how did you get where you are now. The animals you are now producing seem to be even more variable then they were back then.
>>
>>Take Care and stay in touch,
>>
>>John Cherry
>>Cherryville Farms

You know when you start talking it might be a good idea to engage your brain first. I think the salt air in those marshes you work in is getting to your mind, what little of it you academics have left after so much school. The redinthetail poster is gary or at least he portrayed himself as such.

Anyway, the animals are neat and that is the main thing. I believe you have seen the white bulls with black speckling all over them out of the trumbower lines before, if not I will send you some pics. This animal deserves a more descriptive name than that as it is awesome.

Be cool Coon___

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

PS KJ I got the deppei deppei going again with a totsal of 9 adults we just got in plus another shipment coming tomorrow from another source. On the rad again my friend.

I posted one thing from Gary, in qoutes and gave him credit for it though. Sorry to confuse you John.

np

>>You know when you start talking it might be a good idea to engage your brain first.

Why? So far, so good, so why try something new?

>>Anyway, the animals are neat and that is the main thing. I believe you have seen the white bulls with black speckling all over them out of the trumbower lines before, if not I will send you some pics. This animal deserves a more descriptive name than that as it is awesome.

Yes, those are nice animals and distinctly different from these. BUT, people still call the white-sided bullsnakes anerythristic (as redinthetail alludes to, in his correct from my point of view, reference to snow and ghost bulls), so don't hope for a good change in this hobby....lol.

I wish someone could explain this red and orange in some of my white-sided bullsnakes if they are supposed to be anerythristic.

>>Be cool Coon___

That's Occifer Spiderboy to you, old man.

>>PS KJ I got the deppei deppei going again with a totsal of 9 adults we just got in plus another shipment coming tomorrow from another source. On the rad again my friend.

That's great. Of all you lost, that group was probably one of the most unique (and hardest to replace) of all of them. I knew it would take long for you to get back as much as it was possible for you to get back. You need to force Randy to fight to get a collecting permit and go get some more.....lol.

KJ

was your PS to KJ. It's great reading and hearing some positive information coming from Cherryville Farms. It took alot of effort and fortitude with some help of friends to turn what happened not long ago into the type of statements and positive energy in your PS. Congrats and good luck.

>>You know when you start talking it might be a good idea to engage your brain first. I think the salt air in those marshes you work in is getting to your mind, what little of it you academics have left after so much school. The redinthetail poster is gary or at least he portrayed himself as such.
>>
>>Anyway, the animals are neat and that is the main thing. I believe you have seen the white bulls with black speckling all over them out of the trumbower lines before, if not I will send you some pics. This animal deserves a more descriptive name than that as it is awesome.
>>
>>Be cool Coon___
>>
>>John Cherry
>>Cherryville Farms
>>
>>PS KJ I got the deppei deppei going again with a totsal of 9 adults we just got in plus another shipment coming tomorrow from another source. On the rad again my friend.

I appreciate the kudo's on the rebuild we are currently back up to about 175 adult breeders with about 40 clutches in incubation. A far cry from where things were before, but on our way back. Probally the neatest thing that has happened is my son ( little John , all 6'2" 245 ponds of him ) who is 32 decided he wanted to try and learn what little I can teach him about pits etc. and has come into the deal with me and is helping with the record keeping, cleaning and breeding of the animals. So it is actually more fun now than it was before. We should be back up and running full bore by next year if a couple of things fall right. So stay in touch and we will do the same.

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

Send little John my forbidden love...

to Del and I. They were emphasizing that you are Big John. Del and I are planning and hoping to make it to Texas next spring for some roadhunting and visiting. We were almost thinking of about the time Daryl makes his annual pilgrimage for probing and
sees you guys. Daryl doesn't seem to be the same since the last trip. LOL I'm sure KJ is real happy about that idea the way I bug him with questions and can't get it right. I don't know how I do it to such a patient guy. LOL. That's another great thing about your son, Little John, and you working together on this.

>>I appreciate the kudo's on the rebuild we are currently back up to about 175 adult breeders with about 40 clutches in incubation. A far cry from where things were before, but on our way back. Probally the neatest thing that has happened is my son ( little John , all 6'2" 245 ponds of him ) who is 32 decided he wanted to try and learn what little I can teach him about pits etc. and has come into the deal with me and is helping with the record keeping, cleaning and breeding of the animals. So it is actually more fun now than it was before. We should be back up and running full bore by next year if a couple of things fall right. So stay in touch and we will do the same.
>>
>>John Cherry
>>Cherryville Farms

Don't go eyeing Little John, now. I saw him first!

KJ

you say nice things about people and build them up. LOL. I sometimes tear Del down to people who haven't met him and let him dig out of the hole. LOL. They still end up talking to him more. LOL. I keep saying to him, " you took my friend away". LOL I can't figure it out KJ, you tell me how big John Cherry is by saying his son is called Little John and how big Little John is and when I say something, you get all defensive. LOL. Now I know Del and I are heading to Texas.

>>Don't go eyeing Little John, now. I saw him first!
>>
>>KJ

Terry,

when you guys decide to come down let me know, we would be glad to help with laying a trip. Hopefully we can get away and go with you. I had not been collecting in a number of years till Dayrl and KJ started coming down and now it has become a yearly deal for all of us.

As far as KJ when he tries to give you a bad time just remember he is a opinionated little academic that had to move to Texas to try and learn something about reptiles. He still can't even pronouce simple common names such Okeetee and Refugio.

If he doesn't mind his P's & Q's I may have to tell the story of OCCIFER SPIDER BOY.

Take Care and Stay in touch,

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

>>He still can't even pronouce simple common names such Okeetee and Refugio.

Don't forget "Bexar." I still refuse to pronounce that correctly.

KJ

Looks like a spec bull to me!

looking snakes. Best of luck with these guys, and please post more pics if you get the chance, very nice looking snakes!
Have a good one,
Gregg F.

>>thought I'd post a couple pics of one of my Speckled Bulls, Ron
>>
Gregg's RB

Wow!!!!
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