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This question of wild baby monitors living in groups has come up, so it should be addressed in a separate thread. Although I have found multiple separate specimens in separate locations in my rainforest study area (I should have clarified that this rainforest area covers over 2000 square kilometres, of which I have covered only between 30 to 40 square kilometres of) and I have even posted a picture of one that was outside of my hide that I utilised for two weeks (what happened to its group?) I am still waiting for pictures (proof) of baby monitor groups in the wild. Surely there are pictures of these ‘wild’ baby monitor groups to substantiate this ‘wild’ claim! I can not believe that someone would just make up that this happens in nature without actually seeing it or anyone that might have been with him actually seeing it, although the person making this claim has done this before, hasn’t he? Surely FR has pictures of these wild baby monitors groups, or does he?

Cheers

Heres Why;

You ask for pics of these things I say as proof of my understanding. Which is fine. But you really need to consider. Two seperate things.

First, Monitors are not my focus on field study. Which means, I did not take pics of everything I saw with monitors, mainly because these things are normal to me, not exceptional. I have said ten thousand times, I am not a varanphile or monitor person. Goannaman was given to me by the owner of vivarium magazine. I did not name myself(like many here do) I call myself, FR. I take pictures of reptiles that I do study, just like you. But I seem to have more meaningful wild pics of monitors then all of you, or so it seems.

Next, To substaniate or prove my opinions on monitors is to allow success in captivity, That is my proof. That is what I do. In that, I have proved my approach more then you and your friends and I do "more proof" on a weekly basis. A bit of bragging I suppose. I have had and still have, monitor eggs in the incubator, since I started in 1991, there has not been one minute since then, that I did not have monitor eggs incubating. I bet, I am the only person or zoo, or uni. IN THE WORLD, that can say that. How sad. (which means, 15 years +, of continued success)

What seems to be different between us is, I use my knowledge of monitors, to actually work with monitors. You guys think your knowledge of monitors is proved by how it compares to literature or your friends knowledge(none of whom, actually WORK with monitors) The knowledge I take, is to be applied, not theorized about.

In many fields, "working knowledge" is different then, "classroom" knowledge. Surely they have common elements, but are different in application. This is extreme in the field of varanids.

To be accurate, monitors are no different then many other reptiles and other lizards. Their behavioral model and physical model is widespread and common. There similar reptiles across the world. Of course with all different species, there are TINY differences here and there. In fact, behaviorally, even the same species has differences from local to local. But that to is part of the "reptile" model.

To prove this or at least evidence of this is. It took someone like me, a highly non-varanid person, you know, someone with no understanding of monitors, to come in and turn the varanid world on its ear. Instead of having one of your well known varanid experts do it. It appears the more educated a varanid expert is, the worse they are with the subject. The subject is living monitors.

Not to brag, but I do extremely well, both in captivity and in the field. What I have done in captivity is well known. What I have seen in the field, is very surprising considering how little time I spend doing it. As my little test showed, I have pics of monitors none of you experts have ever seen. And I have lots of them. Pretty good for a dumbbell. Do you have pics of monitors the experts have never seen??????

I know the point of your exercise is to discredit me. You and your friends play your silly game of checkers in that order. This silly game of yours was started by Mr. Sweet and friends. He told me so. At least he was honest.

The point of that is, your cannot discredit results. My results with captive monitors and sir, that is the subject we are talking about(looK up). My results are many many many times that of you and all your friends put together. Sir, that is so very sad. As It is not my goal to make you look bad. My goal is to have FUN with monitors. Which I am doing. Consider, for a person whos just having fun, to exceed all the experts is not the fault of the person. [color=blueITS the fault of the experts.

So the point of all this is, I keep on breeding monitors, I keep on seeing all sorts of neat behaviors, I keep on asking new questions. I keep on learning about monitors, which also helps me with other reptiles. I also keep on studying other reptiles that helps me with monitors. Lastly, I keep on achieving successful results. The real problem is, my results seem to be past what you folks think is possible. Again, how sad.

And what do you do??? you keep on arguing. hahahahahahahahahaha see, that is fun too.

If you want to learn, then stop fighting the information and listen, not believe, just listen. If your really interested, test it. What, no guts. When you test something, you have to live with the results. hahahahahahaha

Also, understand this. The information I gain from nature is for direct use with captive monitors. Period.(the focus of this forum) The results of these captive monitors are the proof or substaniation of that information. As I have said a million times, I am not interested in your theoretical information. I am only interested in appliable information. I am interested and have used only the infomation that will benefit captive monitors.

So please understand why information is taken, its to be used, not thought about and compared to other information(common scientific practice at this time)

As I mentioned to Mr. Sweet and others, I could careless about your information thats only for wild monitors and has no application in captivity. You see, at this time. Wild monitors are fine. Specially compared to captive monitors, which are at the very bottom of the reptile world, as far as captive success.

Consider this sad state of affairs. In other areas of reptile keeping, One wild individual will result in hundreds and thousands of captive clutches. One or two individuals will result in a bloodline. This is true for torts, geckos, snakes, etc. With monitors, it takes thousands and thousands of wild monitors to achieve one clutch, which usually dies out. (hard statistics) How sad is that? and whos fault is it? I will answer, ITS VERY SAD and pathetic. And its the fault of those promoting useless information. could that be YOU and your academic friends?

More lastly, you keep dividing and seperating the post to only be about wild monitors. Do you understand, when you do that, you take the thread out of this forums context and into another area, natural history. If this was a natural history forum. Then yes, my proof would be pics of wild monitors doing whatever I said they were doing. But here, wild information is only of use, as to how it effects captives, and the results are from the captives.

I simply cannot believe you and your friends cannot understand that. In fact, I don't believe it. I think your playing silly games. And worse, at the expense of others. As whatever you say will not harm me, I am already successful, in my field. YOU ARE HURTING OTHERS AND MORE SPECIFICALLY, OTHERS CAPTIVE MONITORS Cheers

Frank, what you are doing is assigning behaviors observed in captivity to wild monitors, which is non-applicable, given the simple fact that captivity is, and never will be the wild. Combined with the fact that you have not provided any proof which supports your claims of wild monitors being social, people have every right to debate and question your claims.

You take great offense to this, why? You yourself are one who firmly believes in asking for proof. Why does it strike such a nerve when you are confronted with what you yourself have demanded from people on countless occasions?

Captive success, nomatter how many clutches of eggs you have received, or how many monitors you've hatched out is in no way, shape, or form a valid or acceptable replacement or alternative to field studies on wild monitors. Any scientist (even the "good ones" you are friends with) will tell you this.

I do not see what the big problem is in asking for proof to support a claim or a statement? Why do you?

As for your reasoning of why you do not have any photos of social behaviors, I call BS.

"First, Monitors are not my focus on field study. Which means, I did not take pics of everything I saw with monitors, mainly because these things are normal to me, not exceptional."

So here you use the excuse of not taking photos of social behavior because it was too common for you. Then why have you taken numerous photos of lone individual wild monitors? Did you take all of these "loner" photos which you've posted on various forums over the years because it was such a "rare" occurrence ('not-normal') out in the bush to find them alone? You have never used this explanation for any of the hundreds of photos which you have posted of monitors you've encountered out in the wild. It's funny you should bring this up now, when asked to provide proof to support your claims and your discredit of dozens of varanid ecologists and amateur herpetologists who have never reported such findings (sociality in wild monitors).

As pointed out Frank, you have yet to prove anything in your claims of sociality in WILD varanids. You continue to present these statements as fact to viewers of this and other forums(which are not fact, for a FACT is something which has been PROVEN to be valid through supporting evidence), and in doing so, you will be continually asked for proof by skeptics to support these unverifiable claims. Why do you take such offense to being asked for proof?

As for posting non-captive information in this forum, you are just as, if not more guilty, as you do it all the time. Shall I dig through the archives to refresh your memory? You are the one which regularly posts invalid claims of WILD monitors (assigning behaviors observed in captivity to wild conspecifics), and are subsequently met with opposition. You are the reason why there is such detest and unrest on this forum, for you are the one making statements of wild monitors which are uncomfirmed and unproven, and unprovoked attacks on varanid biologists.

If you want your 'opponents' to take the "wild" talk elsewhere, then follow your own words of advice, and stop claiming WILD varanids to be social. If you did, you will find this forum to be a more peaceful place. Please understand that bold statements which lack any supporting evidence will always be questioned by others here on this forum, on any other forum, and in any walk of life.

This is the scientific method. Supporting one's findings with proof. Thus far, none such proof has been offered by yourself. This is why we fight, this is why you are met with opposition. Also understand that regardless of how many posts and threads that you have deleted/removed from this forum by the moderators, you will continue to be met with opposition if you continue to make unsupported/unverifiable claims.

Stop the "wild", unsupported claims, and you will not be detested. It's as simple as that.

I have been waiting so long to have you tell me, How I learned to breed monitors. Thanks your so special. Go away your useless

Frank, maybe instead of insulting Bob with ad hominems you should discuss and debate wild monitors with what you know and have observe them doing. not captive, WILD monitors.

see, im just trying to leaarn about monitors and a like listening to what you and biologists have to say, but whenever you get backed into a corner with what people observed wild monitors doing you resort to what you've done in captivity (which i like to read about but not when we're trying to discuss wild monitors). then, when someone else brings up another good point you insult them with "you're so special" and "go away, you're usless" instead of actually debating monitors and their behaviours.

maybe you cant stand the fact that someone else has a lot of experience with wild monitors, probably more so then you, so you have to show them up with what you've done in captivity.

maybe you should just not claim things about wild monitors since you dont have a lot of experience with them compared to what mrcota has??? did you ever think of that?

now, im all for you discussing captive monitor husbandry, breeding, etc, because you've definitely had a lot of success with that but when it comes to discussing wild monitors its quite annoying to hear you saying what you've done in captivity.
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-Marshall
1.1.0 ball pythons
0.0.1 red ackie

I take behaviors used by wild monitors and apply them to captivity. That is what I use wild behaviors for. Again to apply. Many of the things in your cage were developed in that way. The retes boards are taken from how they use rock crevices. The deep dirt is taken from how they burrow. The temps were taken directly from where ackies were hiding and basking and in their burrows. How your ackie came to be, was from a group of ackies living in a social situation. Not apart, they are a bonded group. Which I also saw in nature. They do not fight, they do not stress eachother, they do not interfere with nesting.

Now the debate in which you speak is "only" a debate of words, as they have no idea how any monitors pair, bond, nest, or anything. They only know of a monitor on a log, or in a pond, or climbing up a tree. Sir, thats not a lot of information for us to use in captivity. So you can go forth and back until you turn blue. The reason is, its all just words. There is no application of any of their theories. They can write a paper and talk about it amoung themselves, but they do not apply the to the actual monitors, not in captivity or in nature.

I have to wonder what they recomend? keeping all monitors in a cage by themselves???????? it must be, is it?

What I use is directly used in captivity and used successfully. I can't wait until your monitor grows up, and you decide to pair it up. Then one kills the other. Or eats the eggs, or doesn't breed the female. Because you not raising it with other monitors your greatly increasing your chance of failure. I hope you get lucky. Cheers

I've been reading these arguments for quite a while now and I feel I must throw in my two cents.

"They only know of a monitor on a log, or in a pond, or climbing up a tree. Sir, thats not a lot of information for us to use in captivity. So you can go forth and back until you turn blue. The reason is, its all just words. There is no application of any of their theories. They can write a paper and talk about it amoung themselves, but they do not apply the to the actual monitors, not in captivity or in nature."

what you said here can be directly applied to you. You claim wild monitors are social, you observe social behavior in captivity, but you have yet to show us anything that the social behavior you see in captivity is the same in the wild. You have not shown us one photo of a wild varanid that proves anything you have said about social behavior. How is it that you seem to be the only one who has seen this type of activity in the wild. Why is it that those who live with monitors on a daily basis, and those who have spent their entire lives until their death working with monitors (RIP walter auffenberg) have not seen anything that serves as concrete evidence that wild varanids are social animals? Remember that the discusion is wild monitors. Nothing about your great success with captives, or their behavior in captivity, serves as proof for these claims. Now please just answer the question, do you have any proof that wild monitors are social or not? I am in no way attacking your truly amazing success with breeding monitors, I am just asking whether or not your claims have anything to back them up. Simply because you saw a few ackies living in a crevice in the wild and decided that thats what should be done in captivity, doesn't mean that the social behavior you saw in you captive monitors is the same behavior that was taking place in the wild.

Stephen

Hi, This is not an arguement of what people want to call them in the wild, If you want to believe they are anti soical and nomadic and solitary in nature and you feel the need to apply that to captivity, then please go for it. Its your choice and your monitors. I wish you luck.

This is about captive monitors, that the proof is that my observations of what wild monitors do, is successful when applied to captive monitors. Why its here and not on a natural history forum.

I have seen it, and photograghed monitors together, but that really is not proof of anything. But not seeing it, the other sides view, is also not proof of anything. So that debate can go forever, but the mission statement, to focus point, the application, all important parts are not about wild monitors, its about captive monitors. So if it works here, then that is the proof.

You all forget, I am not working with wild monitors for the sake of wild monitors. If I did, I would write it up. I worked with wild monitors to learn and apply what is needed with captives. After all, all you folks seem to have such a hard time keeping and breeding them. The "proof" in my case is with the SUBJECT of this forum, captive monitors. If you want it to be about wild monitors, then by all means believe them. But then consider, what good is that????

Please do not take this as something against you. But these people take the information I give, take it out of context, rearrange it, and sell it back to you. And you want to believe it? I hope you don't believe every commerical you see? As you can tell, they sit around talking amoungst themselves, planning how to distort my information. Imagine how good that is for your monitor. To distort my ramblings, hahahahahahahahahaha

When they post their misguide quotes, they take a sentence, not a paragraph or the whole post. They then add it to another post out of context. You do understand, they can do anything they like. Its only words and letters. As you should undertand, the proof is not in the words or letters, the proof is in the results. All information is suppose to yield results. I can post results on a daily basis and they post NO results, why is that?

If I posted pics of a lizard on a log. And said, these bred like flys and I get ten albino babies and three with two heads and this lizard on the log laid 35 clutches last month. Would you believe it? I hope not. So why do you believe or even intertain what they are saying for a lizard on a log. They have not shown anything. So are they saying monitors do not do anything. Because they have not seen it. Ask them to show a pic of at least one or two pairs breeding in nature? See if they can. After all, if they copulate on a random basis, they should copulate anywhere, you know whenever one crosses the others path. That should be easy to see. Where is there proof???????

For instance, in this arguement, the opposition wants you to not believe my words and believe their words. They want you to not like me and like them.

Now if you really want to analize this, Who cares who you like? who cares how well you do with your monitor? I can only answer for myself, and I do not care if you like me or not. Not now anyway. If we had things in common, and not even about monitors, then maybe we could be friends. But because we agree or disagree about monitors is not reason to like or dislike. I met some people on this forum that I consider friends, I really liked them. And they do not even keep monitors now. I still like them.

About your monitor(if you have one/some), I could careless if you believe me. Its not about me, its about your monitor. If you do not have the sense to understand this, then the best thing is, you do not keep monitors. The reason I say this is, monitor keeping is more about making decisions, then following a recipe. If it was about following recipies, then eveyone would be breeding them like kingsnakes. They aren't you know. Why? and more specifically, why aren't the "Boys" breeding them. Heck, one boy has hatched one baby from many many females. Hmmmmmmmm that is great, but not compared to having every female breed and produce multiple clutches. Which is normal.

The mistake you and others make is, you think its about me. But you forget, I am doing well, ITS ABOUT YOU AND YOUR MONITOR. Are you doing well? Is yes, no worries, if no, then you better choose wisely. Its not even about them, they seem to be happy screwing with other people instead of working with their monitors. Cheers

I never said that just because I happen to think that monitors are solitary, I'm going to keep them that way in captivity. I will keep them however I feel is best for them, even that means something totally different from the wild. simply because something is effective in captivity does not mean that it takes place in the wild.

"I have seen it, and photograghed monitors together, but that really is not proof of anything. But not seeing it, the other sides view, is also not proof of anything. So that debate can go forever, but the mission statement, to focus point, the application, all important parts are not about wild monitors, its about captive monitors. So if it works here, then that is the proof."

And once again I must point out that captive success is not proof of a wild claim. Captivity will never be the wild. The animal must adapt its behaviors to fit its needs in captivity. It is quite possible that if 6 water monitors are housed together in a large outdoor enclosure some social behavior may start to arise. However this doesn't mean this is how it is in wild populations.

Now I'm sorry I have more to talk about at the moment, but I just woke up and am quite tired. I'm building my salvator a new enclosure today so I will doubtfully be on again until tomorrow.

Stephen