Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello All, I have a Patternless Tremper Albino Het for Blazing Blizzard female and Midnight Blizzard and Eclispe eye that I bought gravid. I was told she was bred to a Blazing Blizzard Male. She has laid 4 clutches and all have hatched. The babies look normal. What are they het for? Is it Patternless Tremper Albino and Blazing Blizzard or what. This has me very confused. Also I have some Blizzards and I want to breed them. I haven't read much on them. Like how were they made? was a Albino involved or the Patternless? If so do I need one of those to breed to them or can blizzards be bred together and produce Blizzards? What about producing the Blazing Blizzard. What do I need to produce them? And Last but not least. My Super Hypos were bred to a LV( Rainwater) Albino Male. I realize that the babies are normals het for RW Albino but what could I bred to them when they grow up to make something cool? Most of babies are turning out to look Hypo ect, which is cool. I just wondered which way I should go to produce something different next year from them. Thanks for any help you all can give me. The morphs are all very interesting and fun to learn aope to mbout. I hake something very cool someday. Here is some pictures:

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Beardies: 11.13

Pyro-Red Flaming Tiger x Orange German Giant Male
Kai-GG x Orange GG Male
Skyla-GG x GG Pastel Female
Voodoo-Yellow Red Desert Male
Banshee-Orange Sandfire Female
Puff-Citrus x Red/Orange Sandfire Male
Cera-Citrus x Sunburst Female
Moon- Snow x Hypo Female
Jewel-Yellow Sandfire x Orange Sandfire- Female
Ace-Sundial Coral x Snow Male
Sundra-Sunrise x Red/Gold Sandfire Female
Nitro(Stubbs)-GG x GG Pastel- male Juvy
Rainbow-GG x GG Pastel Female Juvy
Wicket-Sundial Coral x Snow Male
Sedona-Blood x Red/Orange Sandfire Female
Seven-GG Orange x GG Pastel male Juvy
Flame-GG Orange x GG Pastel male Juvy
Cinder-GG Orange x GG Pastel Female Juvy
Kiowa-GG Orange x GG Pastel Female Juvy
Flurry- Snow x Hypo Female Baby
Jinx- Snow x Patternless Pastel x Hypo Orange male Baby
Jazz- Snow x Patternless Pastel x Hypo Orange female Baby
Jet- Snow x Patternless Pastel x Hypo Orange male Baby
Joker- Snow x Patternless Pastel x Hypo Orange female Baby
More Beardie on the way

Leopard Geckos 6.17.3

Blossom- Patternless Tremper Albino Female(Animal Dreams)
Blaze- Jungle Bandit Female (Bruckman's Reptiles)
Bonzai-High yellow Jungle Leo Male Juvy(Bruckman's Reptiles)
Basil-High Yellow Jungle Leo Female Juvy(Bruckman's)
Ebony-Dark Phase Normal Female
Snowflake-Line bred snow Female
Twister-HQ Red Stripe Leo Male
Swayze-HQ Red Stripe Bold Jungle Leo Female(Hot Geckos)
Eclipse-HQ Red Stripe Bold Jungle Leo Female(Hot Geckos)
Ayesha-Outcross JMG x HQ Red Stripe Female(Hot Geckos)
Solar-High Yellow Leo Male
Sunspot-High Yellow Leo Female Juvy( Bruckman's Reptiles)
Phoenix-Super Hypo Tang Carrot Tail Baldy Male (Hot Geckos)
Cajun-Super Hypo Tang Baldy Leo Female(Hot Geckos)
Calypso-Super Hypo Leo Female
Bijou- Super Hypo Tang Carrot Tail Female( Pro Geckos)
Inca- Super Hypo Tang Female (Pro Geckos)
India- Super Hypo Tang Female(Pro Geckos)
Arwen-Rainwater( LV)Jungle Albino Leo Male (Hot Geckos)
Aries-Rainwater(LV) Banded Albino Leo Female (Hot Geckos)
Ice-Blizzard Leo Female Juvy (Bruckman's Reptiles)
Winter-Blizzard Leo Female Juvy (Bruckman's Reptiles
Shiver-Banana Blizzard Leo Male Juvy (Bruckman's Reptiles)

Leo Hatchlings~

unnamed- Aberrant normal high yellow baby leo
unnamed- High Yellow baby leo
unnamed- Red Stripe jungle baby leo
unnamed- Red Stripe baby leo
More Baby Leos to come~

Tortoises 1.1

Velvet-Leopard Tortoise 2 years old male
Isis- Blond Leopard Tortoise 14 mos old female

4.3 Ball Pythons

Stripe Male 05
Black Back Female 05
Het Pied Male 05
Axanthic Female 03
Reduced with Blushing Female 03
Chocolate Reduced Male 04
Banded Male 04

Tarantula's

1 Chaco Golden Knee Tarantula(my husband's)Baby
1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula(my husband's)Baby
1 Curly Hair Tarantula(my husband's)Baby

Other Pets:

8.20 CFA Reg. Manx Cats
Too many to name here (Adults and Kittens)
2.1 German Shepherds
Danzig(Red Sable)male Search and Rescue Tracking
Onyx( Black) Female SAR Air/Ground Scent retired
Sakotah(Black Sable)Male Pup ( Danzig/Onyx's Pup)
1.0 Hedgehog-White Wicca(old man)
2.2 Chinchilla's-Breezy, Stormy Nights, Myst, Black Velvet
0.1 Eastern Gray Squrriel-Paws (Squrrielee-o)
0.1 Ferret-Jumanji(daughter's)
1 White New Zealand Rabbit(rescue)-"Callie"(daughter's)
1 Brown Bear Hamster "Brownie"(daughter's)
1 Golden Longhair Hamster "Keelee"(daughter's)
1.1 Dumbo Rats (daughter's)

What strain of albino was used to make the blazing blizzard male that she was breed to? is the female het for blizzard or for blizzard and another strain of albino? If any normals came out of that patternless female then I can guarantee that the same strain of albino was not used in your patternless and the blazing blizzard that it was breed to.

This is actually pretty bad as you will not be able to sell the offspring accuratly. I mean you don't know if they are Tremper, Bell, or Las Vegas albinos. You would need to do a lot of test breedings to know exactly what you are dealing with.

I was told both were from Tremper Albinos so that is why I do not understand why I just got Normals. And I was told the female was het for Blizzard and midnight blizzard ect. So that most likely is making the normals right? What should I breed the babies to to see what I have then? I have Las Vegas(RW) Albinos here also but no Bells. Here more pictures of a Hypo baby out of a Hypo and Normal High yellow and the Normal het Albino babies and some red stripe babies. Thanks,

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Beardies: 11.13

Pyro-Red Flaming Tiger x Orange German Giant Male
Kai-GG x Orange GG Male
Skyla-GG x GG Pastel Female
Voodoo-Yellow Red Desert Male
Banshee-Orange Sandfire Female
Puff-Citrus x Red/Orange Sandfire Male
Cera-Citrus x Sunburst Female
Moon- Snow x Hypo Female
Jewel-Yellow Sandfire x Orange Sandfire- Female
Ace-Sundial Coral x Snow Male
Sundra-Sunrise x Red/Gold Sandfire Female
Nitro(Stubbs)-GG x GG Pastel- male Juvy
Rainbow-GG x GG Pastel Female Juvy
Wicket-Sundial Coral x Snow Male
Sedona-Blood x Red/Orange Sandfire Female
Seven-GG Orange x GG Pastel male Juvy
Flame-GG Orange x GG Pastel male Juvy
Cinder-GG Orange x GG Pastel Female Juvy
Kiowa-GG Orange x GG Pastel Female Juvy
Flurry- Snow x Hypo Female Baby
Jinx- Snow x Patternless Pastel x Hypo Orange male Baby
Jazz- Snow x Patternless Pastel x Hypo Orange female Baby
Jet- Snow x Patternless Pastel x Hypo Orange male Baby
Joker- Snow x Patternless Pastel x Hypo Orange female Baby
More Beardie on the way

Leopard Geckos 6.17.3

Blossom- Patternless Tremper Albino Female(Animal Dreams)
Blaze- Jungle Bandit Female (Bruckman's Reptiles)
Bonzai-High yellow Jungle Leo Male Juvy(Bruckman's Reptiles)
Basil-High Yellow Jungle Leo Female Juvy(Bruckman's)
Ebony-Dark Phase Normal Female
Snowflake-Line bred snow Female
Twister-HQ Red Stripe Leo Male
Swayze-HQ Red Stripe Bold Jungle Leo Female(Hot Geckos)
Eclipse-HQ Red Stripe Bold Jungle Leo Female(Hot Geckos)
Ayesha-Outcross JMG x HQ Red Stripe Female(Hot Geckos)
Solar-High Yellow Leo Male
Sunspot-High Yellow Leo Female Juvy( Bruckman's Reptiles)
Phoenix-Super Hypo Tang Carrot Tail Baldy Male (Hot Geckos)
Cajun-Super Hypo Tang Baldy Leo Female(Hot Geckos)
Calypso-Super Hypo Leo Female
Bijou- Super Hypo Tang Carrot Tail Female( Pro Geckos)
Inca- Super Hypo Tang Female (Pro Geckos)
India- Super Hypo Tang Female(Pro Geckos)
Arwen-Rainwater( LV)Jungle Albino Leo Male (Hot Geckos)
Aries-Rainwater(LV) Banded Albino Leo Female (Hot Geckos)
Ice-Blizzard Leo Female Juvy (Bruckman's Reptiles)
Winter-Blizzard Leo Female Juvy (Bruckman's Reptiles
Shiver-Banana Blizzard Leo Male Juvy (Bruckman's Reptiles)

Leo Hatchlings~

unnamed- Aberrant normal high yellow baby leo
unnamed- High Yellow baby leo
unnamed- Red Stripe jungle baby leo
unnamed- Red Stripe baby leo
More Baby Leos to come~

Tortoises 1.1

Velvet-Leopard Tortoise 2 years old male
Isis- Blond Leopard Tortoise 14 mos old female

4.3 Ball Pythons

Stripe Male 05
Black Back Female 05
Het Pied Male 05
Axanthic Female 03
Reduced with Blushing Female 03
Chocolate Reduced Male 04
Banded Male 04

Tarantula's

1 Chaco Golden Knee Tarantula(my husband's)Baby
1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula(my husband's)Baby
1 Curly Hair Tarantula(my husband's)Baby

Other Pets:

8.20 CFA Reg. Manx Cats
Too many to name here (Adults and Kittens)
2.1 German Shepherds
Danzig(Red Sable)male Search and Rescue Tracking
Onyx( Black) Female SAR Air/Ground Scent retired
Sakotah(Black Sable)Male Pup ( Danzig/Onyx's Pup)
1.0 Hedgehog-White Wicca(old man)
2.2 Chinchilla's-Breezy, Stormy Nights, Myst, Black Velvet
0.1 Eastern Gray Squrriel-Paws (Squrrielee-o)
0.1 Ferret-Jumanji(daughter's)
1 White New Zealand Rabbit(rescue)-"Callie"(daughter's)
1 Brown Bear Hamster "Brownie"(daughter's)
1 Golden Longhair Hamster "Keelee"(daughter's)
1.1 Dumbo Rats (daughter's)

Ok there may be another possibility. Tremper albino does not mix easily with the patternless or blizzard trait. There is a good chance that this may be what is going on.

The second picture on your first post looked like 2 albino babies. So that would add some validity to the above point. I cannot say for sure as I have not played with these traits together so I don't know exactly what type of problems are encountered with mixung these traits, I just know the possibility of creating a patternless albino out of hets is something like 1 in 500 or 1000 instead of 1 in 16. But I don't know if you just get more normals or more normals, albinos, and patternless.

Maybe someone else will be able to add more, or maybe you can contact the person you bought them off of and they will have a little better insight.

Ok I reread your post to try to make complete sense as I thought I missed some thing. Here goes my new hypothesis.

Ok first lets throw out the patternless gene. The male didn't have it so you won't see it, but all of your babies will be het for it. Also we will call blazing blizzards albino blizzards since that is what they really are.

What you basicly have is an albino blizzard breed to a albino het blizzard. So statisticly you would get all albinos half of which would be blizzards.

Now here comes the problem. The blizzard trait does not combine well with the Tremper albino trait. This would be why you are getting normals. The genes are in a way blocking each other. So you may get a few albinos and blizzards but probably not an albino blizzard. You will also end up with a bunch of double hets that look normal.

I think?

"I have a Patternless Tremper Albino Het for Blazing Blizzard female and Midnight Blizzard and Eclispe eye that I bought gravid. I was told she was bred to a Blazing Blizzard Male. She has laid 4 clutches and all have hatched. The babies look normal. What are they het for? Is it Patternless Tremper Albino and Blazing Blizzard or what."

Okay, the patternless Tremper albino het for blazing blizzard should just be called: petternless tremper albino het blizzard. He is already expressing the albino gene so there is no need to list him as being het for it.
Im confused about the midnight blizzard and eclipse eye part. Do you mean you have a midnight blizzard with solid black eyes or you have a midnight blizzard AND an eclipse? If it was a midnight blizzard eclipse (which I will just call eclipse blizzard because "midnight" isnt a truely genetic morph. It is caused by really low incubation temperatures and low rearing temperatures. Ever wonder why all "midnights" are female? this is similar to "chocolate" albinos...). As I was saying, if its a blizzard eclipse bred to a blazing blizzard you should get blizzard babies which are het for which ever albino was used to make the father "blazing" and het for eclipse. Even though there are trait-linkage problems with the blazing blizzard morph, that would not effect your babies because both the parents were pure homozygous blizzards. I also dont understand the last part of that question.

"Also I have some Blizzards and I want to breed them. I haven't read much on them. Like how were they made? was a Albino involved or the Patternless? If so do I need one of those to breed to them or can blizzards be bred together and produce Blizzards? What about producing the Blazing Blizzard. What do I need to produce them?"

How are blizzards "made" ? Its a gene that blocks pigmentation... If the gecko is homozygous for the blizzard gene it is a blizzard. The blizzard gene is a gene that blocks color and pattern. It was not "made" using other genes...
Pure homozygous blizzards breed true, just like pure homozygous animals of any other gene... To produce blazing blizzards you combine both the albino and blizzard trait in one animal. The result is a purer white color with brownish to redish eyes. First you breed an albino to a blizzard to get double hets. Then you breed the double hets togeather and hope the genes line up perfectly to produce an albino blizzard. The normal equation says 1 in 16 chance but its more like 1 in 100 due to trait-linkage problems with the tremper and bell genes. Basically the genes for bell, tremper, and blizzard are so close to eachother on the DNA strand that during the splitting of the DNA to form a sex cell, they split in a specific way like 99% of the time. This causes the recessive genes to be less likely to be expressed. That also explains why you see alot of 66% het blazing blizzards for sale on the internet.

"My Super Hypos were bred to a LV Albino Male. I realize that the babies are normals het for RW Albino but what could I bred to them when they grow up to make something cool? Most of babies are turning out to look Hypo ect, which is cool. I just wondered which way I should go to produce something different next year from them"

Super hypo is not a recessive trait. It is polygenetic. Poly = many genetic = caused by genes. Polygenetic= CAused by many genes. Think of it as on and off switches. There are hundreds of them connected randomly to hundreds of bulbs and one or two turns all the bulbs off, some turn 1 bulb off, some turn 5 bulbs off, some turn 34 bulbs off, etc. So if you randomly flick say 50 switches you will get a random combination of bulbs turned on and off. Polygenetic traits work the same way. If they are outbred they will still be expressed in some degree due to the number of genes involved and the way they work. That would cause a reduction of dark pigment in the first outbred generation, but not a full blown super hypo trait. If you bred them togeather you would get 50% LV albino hypos, 25% hypo-ish normals and 25% hypo-ish het albinos.
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Leopard Geckos 1.3
Bull Frog 1.0
Bearded Dragon 1.0

"Basically the genes for bell, tremper, and blizzard are so close to eachother on the DNA strand that during the splitting of the DNA to form a sex cell, they split in a specific way like 99% of the time. This causes the recessive genes to be less likely to be expressed. That also explains why you see alot of 66% het blazing blizzards for sale on the internet."

What about the Rainwater gene? Could you theoretically make Blizzards easier with Rainwater albinos?
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-Kristin

0.1.2 Leopard Geckos
(Monet, Kumquat, and Tamale)

Hmmm... it occurs to me that one might use this to their advantage too. Being that the genes are sooooo close together that they effectively might be 'punnet squared' as a single gene, then by breeding 2 100% double hets for blizzard and tremper albino you would get nearly a quarter blazing blizzards, half 100% double het blizzard/tremper albinos and a quarter normals. This is basically 4x the chance (minus a very small fraction) that you would get by crossing most double hets.

Of course the hard part is getting the original 100% double hets for tremper albino blizzards in the first place.

QUOTE
"Hmmm... it occurs to me that one might use this to their advantage too. Being that the genes are sooooo close together that they effectively might be 'punnet squared' as a single gene, then by breeding 2 100% double hets for blizzard and tremper albino you would get nearly a quarter blazing blizzards, half 100% double het blizzard/tremper albinos and a quarter normals. This is basically 4x the chance (minus a very small fraction) that you would get by crossing most double hets.
Of course the hard part is getting the original 100% double hets for tremper albino blizzards in the first place."

No, you misunderstood me. Trait linkage makes it harder for recessive genes to be expressed because the DNA doesnt split as randomly as it would for genes farther appart. You are more likely to get the dominant genes to be expressed due to the linkage problem. The 100% hets are easy to get, once you get a pure homozygous blazing blizzard just breed it to a normal, or breed a blizzard to an albino. Its just hard to get the double hets to produce homozygous recessives, because the traitlinkage blocks the genes.

The easiest path for one to produce blazing blizzards would be through the Las Vegas line (rainwater). The tremper (texas) line is the next easiest, ands the Bell (florida) line is the hardest. I believe the odds were 1 in 100 changes of tremper blazing blizzards from double het breedings...?
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Leopard Geckos 1.3
Bull Frog 1.0
Bearded Dragon 1.0

Actually, I didn't misunderstand you per se though we are talking about slightly different cases.

You're addressing the case where you want to create a double recessive using offspring from two different lines of fully recessive parents.

My point was aimed at a special case where once linked, the genes operate together such that properly selected double het offspring can give better than normal double het results for generating double recessive offspring.

Let's say someone breeds a normal with a Tremper blazing blizzard. The offspring will naturally be 100% normal-looking double het for tremper albino and blizzard. Now here's the cool part.

Chances are the two traits are already linked because they were inherited from one parent. Breeding the offspring together improves your chances of getting a double het from 1/16 to nearly 1/4. Half of the offspring will likely be double hets, again with pre-linked traits. Finally the last 1/4 will most likely be normal.

Just goes to show that not all double hets are created equal.

Where this might come in handy is if you know the individual genetic makeup of the parents of the animals you purchase and not just if they're double or triple het, etc... There's not enough information in the 'het' classification alone.

I *DO* understand that your comments were directed more at the original question though. I was merely attempting to explain how the odds improve once you get past that linking hurdle (maybe I didn't do the best job of it though).

v/r,

N.F.

Reading back over my original message I definately did a crappy job of explaining it so my apologies!

Hm... now that you explained what you ment it does seem plausible...

plus if your breeding double hets to a double recessive your chances are better
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Leopard Geckos 1.3
Bull Frog 1.0
Bearded Dragon 1.0