Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have two one year old graybands and I want to breed them in the future. The female is smaller and has a lot of red in her with nice colors and the male has hardly any red at all in him. Do you have any idea what kind of offspring I will get with those two? And is there anything I should be doing now until they are old enough to breed? What temperature should they be kept at for hibernation? I live in Southern California and sometimes in the winter the temps will get a little warm in the day. What would you recommend? Any help on any questions would be very helpful. Thankyou.

Five eggs next year...

The first baby will have 20 bands, medium orange and medium gray...
The second will have 17 bands bright orange ultra lite grey and a kinked tail
The third will die in the egg due to fungal infection
The fourth will have bright orange 22 bands with medium grey.
The fifth will be an alterna morph 8 bands 4 intermediates
dark grey a few slivers of orange (can't tell if it's the crystal ball or dust)...

Best wishes,

Cleo

I am a person with a sense of humor and I can take a joke. But I don't appreciate sarcasm that not only mocks my lack of knowledge but you also don't give me any answers to any of my questions which only leads me to believe that you know absolutley nothing about breeding kingsnakes. You guys complain that you need more people in your hobby, well you just blew your chance to actually help someone trying to come into this hobby! Thank you for your stupidity. If there is anyone else out there who would actually like to help then I would appreciate it. Thankyou,
Kevin

He makes some good points, kinking and full term dead in egg are common problems in Gray Bands and mixing an alterna with a Blair's phase is likely to get you a mixed clutch. If you have hatched out a number of alterna too it can seem that the nicest light phases are always the ones the come out kinked or die full term. It can be frustrating, especially when the only person who wants to buy your alterna after you have spent 3 months getting them switched to pinkies wants to try and talk you down from your meager $40 asking price.
Hibernation should be 50 to 55 degrees for 3 to 4 months. Affter hibernation give the females a hot spot of approx. 82 to 84 degrees. Keep the males a little cooler around 77 and/or provide them with a night time temperature drop down to about 68 to 72 to ensure you don't overheat their sperm. Feed the males smaller meals that are easier to digest. After the females are gravid raise the hot spot to about 85.
These methods work for me on the central coast of CA where the spring room temps are about 70 to 75 in the day and 65 to 70 at night.
Something I haven't tried yet but that some people reccommend is taking the males out of hibernation about 2 weeks earlier than the females.

Not mocking a lack of knowledge... Just funny that's all...
Actually Im glad that you are into Alterna.

Their seems to be the difference between the "old timers" and the new guys.

When collecting
Old Timers
Are Polite, patient, take their time, hang out with others, leave fake snakes in the road, joke around, and just have a good time...

New Guys
Cut you off, shine the cuts in front of you, don't talk about anything, don't buy you lunch in Del Rio or Study Butte.

Please lighten up. If I knew you would have taken it badly, I would not have said anything.

Best of Luck with the Alterna...

Steven

Like I said, I love humor, but the only problem I had was that I didn't get an actual answer either. If you gave me a joke and then a real answer I would have laughed and then said thankyou for the good advice. I myself respect the old timers and feel the same way about the new guys being rude. I was not trying to be rude, but next time give me a real answer along with your humor. By all means don't stop with the jokes...I was laughing but I was also left with the same unanswered questions. I wish I lived in a place where I could collect Alterna! Do you know of any good places to collect snakes in Southern California?
Thanks!
Kevin

I live in california too, but I don't think I would go out and collect kingsnakes here, there is just so much variety in the captive bred market... and the cali. mt. kings (zonatas, tricolors, not the black and whites) are illegal to buy and sell, such a shame and you can't breed them w/o a permit.
-----

My greybands:
Prince Mandrake and Princess Caldera

You are correct, and you have my apologies for not offering an answer. I should have posted one as well...
I noticed several folks replied to intial post, and one was a very informative reply.. I doubt really I could add much value to it. As far as So Cal, the best person to ask would be Brian Hubbs. Also ask Fundad. I have never been out that way... All I can give is the stuff I pick up from the other forums...
1. Don't use crowbars to hunt zonata.
2. Make sure you have permits (when needed).
3. Boardlines seem to be popular for hunting Cal Kings...

The California folks (and I don't know the full story behind this) seem to be bit secretive about hunting areas. That could be because people destroy the habitat as they hunt though.

Best of luck,
Steven

Yeah I have noticed the lack of info on good collecting places in California. I always see pictures and hear stories from people collecting in other states and it sounds so fun, but the best I've seen around here is a 4 foot gopher! Well thanks anyway!
Kevin

I usually try to breed my alterna in their 3rd year. Keep feeding them as usual for the next year. I try to brumate(hibernate) in the mid 50's for about 90 days. Every day temps range from 78-82 degrees. As for the appearance of the potential offspring, who knows? That's part of the appeal of breeding alterna. Good luck.

TJ

Kevin:

I agree it's no fun to not get an direct answer to a question. Here are my thoughts regarding what you've asked about:

1) Let your snakes grow to full maturity. 3 years for males and 4 years for females. This will avoid a lot of the common problems with breeding the species. Many people are in too big of a hurry and end up with fertility or egg deposition problems because the animals were not fully mature or were over-fed, forced-to-grow fat examples of what wild kingsnakes are not .

2) Brumate the animals each year as they would do in the wild, not just to induce hormonal changes necessary for their sexual cycles. This will occur naturally as the animals mature and their grwth will be at a natural rate. You don't want to force growth as this generally leads to health and reproductive problems in later age. I too, live in S California and I know that winter can be warm here. One key to successful cycling of kingsnakes is light deprivation. This combined with lowered temperature will help keep the animals calm and inactive through the winter months. Allow 3-4 months for this period.

3) Peridically provide water to your brumating animals. This is very important to maintaining organic function and health and to reproductive viability in the spring.

4) Always inroduce the ovulating female to the male. The male's natural behavior is to patrol his territory to encounter females. He will respond to her instantly in most cases if she's receptive.

5) Allow the pair to copulate each day for several days during the female's receptive period. This will help ensure that fertilization takes place.

6) Following the mating period, feed the female as much as she will take. This will help her develop her eggs and offset her energy investment in them so that she will not be depleted following egg deposition. Keep the male away from the female, preferably in another area where he can't smell her so that he remains calm and doesn't pace and dig around in his caging.

7) It takes about 40 days from mating to laying. The female will go through a shed cycle about 10-12 days prior to egg deposition. Provide her with a nesting box filled with moist sphagnum moss and paper toweling. The female will spend the last 5-6 days in the box. It is important not to disturb or handle her at this time. After laying, she may remain coiled around the clutch for 26-36 hours. Resist temptation and leave her alone during this period.

8) After the female has left the clutch, carefully remove it taking care to keep it the same upright position. Do not tip or invert the eggs or you will kill the embryos. Incubate them at 80-82F and they should begin hatching at 63-65 days of age.

9) Without knowing the history of your animals, it's hard to say what to expect in terms of color/pattern phenotypes. In general however, when the parents are of dissimilar patterns ie. wide bands v narrow bands, the offspring will exhibit patterning of each type as well as types intermediate to both. Color can be highly variable and unpredictable because color ontogeny takes place as the young snakes grow. What starts out light may be charcoal grey in maturity and sometimes "ugly ducklings" become quite beautiful with age. That's what amkes it interesting, right?

Well, that's a short synopsis for you--hope it helps you get started in the right direction. Good luck and please feel free to contact me if you have additional questions.

Sincerely,

Robert Haase
Oceanside, CA

Excellent summary, Robert! I'm going to print it out, and maybe frame it for next year! (My blairs were 3 years old this past spring, but I did a few things that deviated from your guidelines, and ended up with eggs that didn't make it.)

Comment on #4) - the male will likely respond instantly, whether the female is receptive or not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but trouble could erupt if she isn't. This potential situation reinforces the need to watch them closely after introducing the pair.

Question on #5) - "...female's recptive period." How do you define it? I've read many sources that indicate the optimal time is the period just after her first post-brumation shed. But others, including some on the forum here, prefer to wait until the second shed. Recommendation?

Thanks again for a great summary -
-----
MichaelB

Actually I was talking to a bigtime Alterna breeder who owns the Reptile shop in my area and he said that Graybands are slightly different than other species when waiting for the correct time for the female. He said that you don't even have to wait for the first shed and that sometimes it is too late after she sheds. He had been breeding them for years and he has had great success with it. Let me know how it works if you try it next year.
Kevin

Kevin:

I agree it's no fun to not get an direct answer to a question. Here are my thoughts regarding what you've asked about:

1) Let your snakes grow to full maturity. 3 years for males and 4 years for females. This will avoid a lot of the common problems with breeding the species. Many people are in too big of a hurry and end up with fertility or egg deposition problems because the animals were not fully mature or were over-fed, forced-to-grow fat examples of what wild kingsnakes are not .

2) Brumate the animals each year as they would do in the wild, not just to induce hormonal changes necessary for their sexual cycles. This will occur naturally as the animals mature and their grwth will be at a natural rate. You don't want to force growth as this generally leads to health and reproductive problems in later age. I too, live in S California and I know that winter can be warm here. One key to successful cycling of kingsnakes is light deprivation. This combined with lowered temperature will help keep the animals calm and inactive through the winter months. Allow 3-4 months for this period.

3) Peridically provide water to your brumating animals. This is very important to maintaining organic function and health and to reproductive viability in the spring.

4) Always inroduce the ovulating female to the male. The male's natural behavior is to patrol his territory to encounter females. He will respond to her instantly in most cases if she's receptive.

5) Allow the pair to copulate each day for several days during the female's receptive period. This will help ensure that fertilization takes place.

6) Following the mating period, feed the female as much as she will take. This will help her develop her eggs and offset her energy investment in them so that she will not be depleted following egg deposition. Keep the male away from the female, preferably in another area where he can't smell her so that he remains calm and doesn't pace and dig around in his caging.

7) It takes about 40 days from mating to laying. The female will go through a shed cycle about 10-12 days prior to egg deposition. Provide her with a nesting box filled with moist sphagnum moss and paper toweling. The female will spend the last 5-6 days in the box. It is important not to disturb or handle her at this time. After laying, she may remain coiled around the clutch for 26-36 hours. Resist temptation and leave her alone during this period.

8) After the female has left the clutch, carefully remove it taking care to keep it the same upright position. Do not tip or invert the eggs or you will kill the embryos. Incubate them at 80-82F and they should begin hatching at 63-65 days of age.

9) Without knowing the history of your animals, it's hard to say what to expect in terms of color/pattern phenotypes. In general however, when the parents are of dissimilar patterns ie. wide bands v narrow bands, the offspring will exhibit patterning of each type as well as types intermediate to both. Color can be highly variable and unpredictable because color ontogeny takes place as the young snakes grow. What starts out light may be charcoal grey in maturity and sometimes "ugly ducklings" become quite beautiful with age. That's what amkes it interesting, right?

Well, that's a short synopsis for you--hope it helps you get started in the right direction. Good luck and please feel free to contact me if you have additional questions.

Sincerely,

Robert Haase
Oceanside, CA

Thanks so much for your advice! I guess I have to wait 2 more years to breed. Thanks again!
Kevin