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........or am I just missing something? I bred these 2 together this year. Since they're both noticably striped, I was expecting pretty much a clutch of striped hatchlings with varying side patterns, and maybe a few aberrants from any unknown genes.
The male is a fairly clean sided striped Banana, with a few small brown marks here and there on the sides. The female is a striped snow/blizzard, with her stripe consisting of just yellow dots on the center dorsal scale row, going from the nape of her neck to the tip of her tail. Each dot of the stripe consists of about 50-75% of each scale. The only other yellow marks she has are some on her labials, both upper and lower. The rest of her, including her belly, is typical "albino" white. So this is what I was working with.......

Head shot of them together....

Side by side pic showing their patterns......

The following posts are what I got from them.....

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Ace

First one out of the egg, an aberrant banded........

#2, mostly striped, with mixed in banding......

#3, an aberrant banded.....

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Ace

I really like #1

Did you post a pic of him earlier? Either you did or someone else produced one just like him.

Anyway, I really like him.
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3.0 WC; 0.2 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Yes, I posted it before to help explain something FR had posted on on predicting patterns on hatchlings no less!!! LOL

...and thanks!!!!
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Ace

#4 an aberrant banded.......

#5 a "true" 50/50, half striped and half banded...

#6 an aberrant banded......

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Ace

#7, the first real striped.......

#8, my favorite from the clutch, a striped......

and finally #9 a banded and somewhat banded....

So this brings a few questions to my mind.
#1- How is it possible to produce so many banded hatchlings from a stripe X stripe breeding?
#2- Has this ever happened to anyone else? FR, Kerby? Where you bred 2 similar patterned Kings and got mostly the complete opposite of what they were?
#3- They all seem to have a somewhat melanistic trait. Although I don't know if I'd call it melanism. It seems to be restricted to their mid dorsal region, with it becoming cleaner and almost absent on the sides. Would you consider this melanism (making my Banana a het) or just another fluke of this breeding?

Thanks for any replies!!
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Ace

Sorry, #9 should read mostly banded and somewhat STRIPED!!!
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Ace

That is because your banana is not a genetic (dominant) striped cal king, it is an aberrancy, so the offspring should not be predictable.

Kerby...

But the ratio I got would indicate closer to a banded X striped breeding. Even with him not being a true striped, he wouldn't be a real banded either, kinda inbetween I'd think, so the ratio still should've been more striped......no?
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Ace

Once you breed an aberrant of any kind to a banded you will break up the banding and produce aberrants of all kinds, some banding, and maybe some striping (probably not complete though).

Once you breed an aberrant of any kind to a stripe you will break up the striping and produce aberrants of all kinds, some banding, and maybe some striping.

A reverse stripe is an aberrant cal king, just like high white, bananas, spotteds, etc..

They are cool looking though.

Kerby...

OK, I follow you now. So, I guess that pretty much answers my third question then too. Whether this is "real" melanism or just a fluke of this breeding. Does put a bright note on this trait though. If this is their pattern WITHOUT showing true melanism, they SHOULD be even darker WITH it!!! I MAY be right behind you!!! LOL

Thanks Kerby!
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Ace

Looks like a regular striped albino (pretty one though).

Blizzards do not have any head pattern (mask) that other cal kings have.

Most Blizzards do have some pattern, but very faint and sometimes can't be seen unless taken outside in day light.

Kerby...

But she DOES show melanistic traits. Just like your Mendota, she has a reduced pattern through melanism. Since she's also an albino, she IS a snow/blizzard, just not a "perfect" one.

For instance, her belly is solid white, meaning it WOULD be solid black/brown as a "normal", and her stripe is highly reduced compared to most Cali Kings, taking up LESS than one scale on each center dorsal row. Her head is mostly white, except for the few labial bars. Making her head near completely black/brown as a normal. These are ALL traits associated with true melanism. Like I said before, she's pretty much an albino "nitida", which are known as being a melanistic population from the Southern Baja.

This is why I choose to call her a snow, it clarifies that she is melanisitic, but still shows some type of pattern

A close up of her stripe.....

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Ace

**But she DOES show melanistic traits. Just like your Mendota, she has a reduced pattern through melanism.**

I disagree as I have Albino High Whites, Albino Bananas that have more white and more yellow than your striped albino, that does not make them associated with melanism/hypermelansim.

**Since she's also an albino, she IS a snow/blizzard, just not a "perfect" one.**

That doesn't make sense unless you know that her parents came from hypermelanistic lines. It is a simple recessive gene, not a "look".

**For instance, her belly is solid white, meaning it WOULD be solid black/brown as a "normal",**...

And that statement is totally incorrect, as albino babies that have brown bellies as normals would have a different colored white belly. I have produced probably over 500 baby cal kings with either solid white, solid yellow, or solid brown bellies that weren't het for anything. That belly feature means absolutey nothing.

**and her stripe is highly reduced compared to most Cali Kings, taking up LESS than one scale on each center dorsal row.**

Which makes her an albino stripe or albino aberrant.

**Her head is mostly white, except for the few labial bars.**

All of the Blizzards that I have produced and seen have NO HEAD markings, although some have faint body markings when viewed outside.

**Making her head near completely black/brown as a normal.**

I have produced cal kings with a reduced head pattern, but the pattern was still there. Does not relate to a Blizzard.

**These are ALL traits associated with true melanism.**

Totally incorrect.

**This is why I choose to call her a snow, it clarifies that she is melanisitic, but still shows some type of pattern**

Totally incorrect, as "snow" refers to 2 recessive genes at the same time (anery & albino). As in a Snow Corn, and coming soon a Snow Splendida (anery and albino).

Blizzard refers to 2 recessive genes at the same time (albino & hypermelanism).

I also will be breeding my 2 holdback double het (lavender & hypermelansim) cal kings next year producing a Lavender Blizzard, hopefully, 1/16 odds.

Kerby...

Totally patternless lavender blizzard yet?, i don't believe i have seen one.

I think Kerby is still working on that project.

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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 7/29!!!
www.captivebredforum.com

The way the snake Gods have been good to me, maybe my double hets (lavender & hypermelanism) will produce one next year.

Kerby...

patternless banana yellow blizzard, it was pure awesome.

>>>>I disagree as I have Albino High Whites, Albino Bananas that have more white and more yellow than your striped albino, that does not make them associated with melanism/hypermelansim.

True they're completely opposite traits. The "white" areas I'm refering to WERE pink when she was a hatchling. Making those areas Black/brown as a normal.

>>>That doesn't make sense unless you know that her parents came from hypermelanistic lines. It is a simple recessive gene, not a "look".

It's the combined effect of those traits. I, you, or anyone can tell what areas of her SHOULD be black/brown without knowing what her parents were just by looking at her, just as you can by looking at ANY albino. Adding all these combined albino traits, you can tell she has well above normal brown/black, making her melanistic. She would have, a brown/black belly, side body pattern, and head with the only pattern a thin partial stripe and a few labial bars. ALL these triats combined point to a melanistic snake no matter how you want to define it.

**and her stripe is highly reduced compared to most Cali Kings, taking up LESS than one scale on each center dorsal row.**

>>>>.Which makes her an albino stripe or albino aberrant.

If it were JUST this trait alone, yes I'd agree, but combined with all the others it does make it melanistic.

>>>although some have faint body markings when viewed outside.

.....and yet you say mine can't be because she shows hers when veiwed under lit conditions?

**These are ALL traits associated with true melanism.**

>>>>>Totally incorrect.

I'd have to disagree. You combine all these traits to make a snake that is almost ALL black/brown without it's albino trait, what would you call it?

I think the problem here is with you having your high white albinos, etc. you veiwed my post as meaning that trait. I didn't, as I said in my origanal description of her in my first post in this thread. Aside from just a small thin stripe and a few labial bars "The rest of her, including her belly, is typical "albino" white."
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Ace

**True they're completely opposite traits. The "white" areas I'm refering to WERE pink when she was a hatchling. Making those areas Black/brown as a normal.**

Albinos are suppose to be pink as babies that will turn into white. That is a normal process.

**It's the combined effect of those traits. I, you, or anyone can tell what areas of her SHOULD be black/brown without knowing what her parents were just by looking at her, just as you can by looking at ANY albino. Adding all these combined albino traits, you can tell she has well above normal brown/black, making her melanistic.**

That is totally genetically incorrect.

**She would have, a brown/black belly, side body pattern, and head with the only pattern a thin partial stripe and a few labial bars. ALL these triats combined point to a melanistic snake no matter how you want to define it.**

That is totally genetically incorrect.

**If it were JUST this trait alone, yes I'd agree, but combined with all the others it does make it melanistic.**

That is totally genetically incorrect.

**.....and yet you say mine can't be because she shows hers when veiwed under lit conditions?**

Yours looks just like an albino - period.

**I'd have to disagree. You combine all these traits to make a snake that is almost ALL black/brown without it's albino trait, what would you call it?**

An aberrant California Kingsnake. They've been produced by the hundreds in the past. Yours is simply an albino aberrant with a slightly striped pattern. IT IS THAT SIMPLE.

I'm not sure why you are so persistant on calling it something that it isn't and your offspring are a normal outcome.

Kerby...

A reduction in the amount of yellow pattern does not have anything to do with genetic melanism. Your snake sounds to me like a reduced pattern striped albino. Normal stripers commonly have solid brown bellies. In recessive melanism the melanin shows as a heavy dark suffsion within the yellow pattern somewhat like you took a normal Cal King and rubbed grease on it. In other words the yellow, regardles of how much there is has a tarnished look to it. When you mix this with albino the pattern is basicly "erased".
As Kerby said your other snake is a bannana. Bannanas are really just extreme abberrants made by mixing the widest banded with the widest stripers so all bannanas carry both the stiped and banded genes. As to why you got mostly banded abberrants the reason is that for one in cal kings striped is not simple recessive so it will not follow simple mendelin (hope that's the right term) genetics. Plus once you have a banana you have effectively broken the regular patterns apart and mixed them up at the same time. Your bandeds actually show quite a bit of striped influence in the from of "widows peaks" along the dorsal line, which is not normal for bandeds.

I am dumb because I read your post and didn't reply originally. Later when I did reply I realized after posting I didn't remember that some of those babies show a melanin effect that does look like smudged grease. As you said though if the smudging is restricted to the dorsal surface and not on the sides that is strange, at least in my experience. There could be something melanistic-like going on there. Tell me if you don't mind do the smudged ones have solid dark bellies with a trace of striping on the underside of the tail? If so that is indicative of true melanism.

Kerby...

You mean like this?..........
Poor pic taken with a bad camera.......

a Better pic showing what she looked like as a yearling......

a hand feeding pic from this weekend....

Just becasue I lit her up to emphisize her pattern in the other pics, doesn't make her pattern any more than your "faint pattern that can only be seen in sunlight"
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Ace

Until you posted that last pic...an albino cal king.

Breed it to a Mendota, that will PROVE it...bottom line.

Kerby...

That's not a blizzard...

It has a pattern... Too much of a pattern.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Updated 7/29!!!
www.captivebredforum.com