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There have been many many crosses made using Argentine Boas from many different bloodlines. However, none of the offspring that I have ever seen seem to have the classic Argentine pattern we all know to be a particular characteristic of Argentines. You know the smearing of the side blotches and connected pattern. The offspring never look exactly like anything like that but normally more Colombian than Argentine in the Argentine/Colombian crossings that I have seen. I have three questions:

1. Has anyone ever seen one of these offspring that has actually retained the Argentine type pattern?

2. If the answer is yes, can you post a picture of one of these offspring?

3. Has anyone breed two of the Argentine Cross animals together? What about a Salmontine X Salmontine? Has that been done? Any link to the resulting offspring?

I guess I am wondering out loud if the pattern of Argentines might be a "Simple recessive" trait or not. Perhaps a dumb question but maybe not. It seems to be clearly recessive but whether simple or not, I cannot tell.

One other weird thing about Argentines is how dramatically different they appear from amarali. Amarali come from an area in closest proximity to Argentines, but they look totally different. Do you know what I mean? Thin pattern generally and separated at that, most times. It just seems strange that the Boas that come from an area somewhat closer to Argentina might look somewhat similar. But the fact is that some Central American or Mexican Boas may look more similar to Argentine Boas than say Bolivian amarali ever do. Just a head scratchier for me.

Any input on this question would be appreciated.

My take on this Jeff...is that you have some awesome looking animal to show us....
But anyway...I know Chris Gilbert has an Argentine picture of what you are talking about...maybe he will post it.
I still want to see what you have! Andy
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I posted it below.

Hey, Jeff ... I like your thoughts on the Argentine pattern possibly being "simple recessive".

Keep hitting the sauce and see what else you can come up with. Southern Comfort, Corona ... they all work for helping me to get outside the box and make new discoveries.

Just be responding to your post, I have come with a new morph to make a run at sometime in the future.

Let me know of any definitive findings in this regards.

Bill

sauce. Apparently he hits the glue hard enough to keep him feeling good.

Phil Goss

This snake looks this good with or without any special sauce.

hmmm!

.....from a breeding I did back in 2004.

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BASICALLYBOAS.com
'Specializing in only the Highest Quality True RedTails & Designer Boa Morphs'

Email Us!

....and another. Imagine if she was Het Albino!

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BASICALLYBOAS.com
'Specializing in only the Highest Quality True RedTails & Designer Boa Morphs'

Email Us!

Can you notice any argentine influence at all in the offspring?

Can you post any non-hypo pics from a 1st pairing of Argentine
to salmon?

Do all hypos have short tails like that?

Seems to me that all the ones I've held and looked at have
shorter tails than regular BCI. I might be completely off on this. I'm a long time Hog Island boa owner. My Guyanans had
longer tails as well and Hogs have pretty long tails.

The hypo I've got now has a short tail like the ones you
posted.

>>....and another. Imagine if she was Het Albino!
>>
>>
>>-----
>>BASICALLYBOAS.com
>>'Specializing in only the Highest Quality True RedTails & Designer Boa Morphs'
>>
>>Email Us!
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

Long time no talk Mike. Congrats on the awesome Guyana Sharp Albinos! I have been meaning to call you to see how things are going.

Mike, did any of them revert back to the classic Argentine type pattern? Mike, it seems as if that pattern is gone for good with everything that is produced subsequent to that original animal being crossed. Do you have anything showing anything contrary to that? I would think that would more likely occur in a non-hypo than a Hypo.

in the living boa book there is a pic of a "paragaun boa" on pg 56 i think that looks to me like a bca /bco cross. i have seen some 75% argy non hypo sibs that look argy but the color was to light to ba a argy. i always wanted to cross a miller purple stock bca to a argy and get a agry pattern snake in the purple bca colors.

pretty darn close. I have a little snake here that is the result of a Suriname X Argentine breeding. I saw most of the litter and two of the babies that I saw could have nearly passed as full Argentines. Another looked much like a Suriname. The snake I have has the longer BCC head, but has a perfect, little Argentine tail. She also has Argentine looking saddles and a few connected side blothches, but not nearly the thick pattern of an Argentine. The litter was extremely variable. It would seem very bizarre if the body pattern was recessive and the tail was dominant. There's another one to think about! I will get pics of her as soon as she sheds.

Phil Goss

did it get to be anerythristic? I though you posted that (awesome looking) boa before as a type 2 anery? Has a radical tail too! : ) Love that boa, but would love to know more about it.

Caden

is a Type II anery. I don't have pics of the Suri X Argentine. I stated I would takes pics as soon as she shed in the post (meaning I don't have any and could not post one). I will get pics of her when we return from Daytona. Sorry for the confusion.

The Type II was one of the last two girls available from a litter two years ago. Her sister looked nothing like her, but I should have purchased her as well. Her sister had much more contrast and lacked the black eyes. She didn't look like she would darken up. However this girl just screamed at me that she would get more black with age, and so she has. Below is a pic of her taken a few months ago.

Phil Goss

She's really beautiful, Phil. Thanks for the clarification.
Caden

Both subspecies do have the short tail in common.
The tails are not only short, but have a similar pattern too.
Seems to me that they would be related, based solely on the patterns (no pun) of reproduction in captive collections.

All it would take is one freak male. Not a stretch at all. Several folks around here have built their empire off of one freak Boa!
Jeff has said that the Monstertail matriarch, as well as her offspring, and grandchildren, if left to their own, are VERY aggressive! There was a post here showing a unique looking Albino awhile back. This person said it was the meanest Boa they had ever seen. In one response, someone...Phil Goss maybe, said that he had noticed a tendency in unique animals. They are usually mean. How would that affect wild populations?
This wild, freak male, a dark Amarali, or a light Argentine ( with a short tail), is adventurous by nature, a very aggressive breeder. He travels farther than anyone in his native population, and survives because he is so nasty tempered. Finds a bunch of females at the end of his journey...Barry White music...BAM, a new look. So many possibilities, and not enough "sauce" to ponder them all..

jason
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sounddjinn@yahoo.com

Things always get cloudy, just before transformation.

Hi, Jeff!
If it were simple recessive, we could take two salmontine siblings that don't show the pattern and breed them together. Technically, these would be 100% hets for the Argentine pattern if how the gene operates. Theoretically, we'd get about 1/4 of the babies with the pattern if it's simple recessive. It’d be pretty telling for the offspring to show traits not expressed by either parent in the ratio in which we find simple recessive traits inherited. I know the Salmontines have been bred to pure Argentines. What were the results?
Technically, you'd be breeding a het for the Argentine pattern (the Salmontine) to a homozygous for the Argentine pattern (the Argentine). If it's recessive, statistically, we'd see half of the babies showing the pattern clearly and half of them clearly not. If it were me, I'd probably discount the hypos in the litter and only use the non-hypos as the hypo trait can influence pattern as well as color. An example of this would be the hypo/arabesque breeding in which the hypo trait destroyed the Arabesque pattern. Didn’t that happen with the hypo x Motley breeding, too?
This reminds me of the theory that I’ve heard that Hog Island boas are actually double homozygous for a new dominant type of hypomelanism.
Cool thoughts, Jeff!
Glad to see you posting so much.
Thanks for the pics, Mike!
Aaron

This guy is from an Argentine X Het Kahl Albino Colombian litter by Pete Kahl. So he is 50% Argentine and Colombian.

You can see the Argentine pattern, blocky-connected saddles, side stripeing.
However he has a lot more contrast due to the Colombian influence. His color changes dramatically, usually a blueish, but goes from a steel grey to brick red on the extremes.

Here he is with a Suriname X Hog Island RIP:

Here is a Sonoran, Mexico boa as you mentioned a similarity:

Here is a Bolivian amarali:

because it has the color of a Hog Isle, with the pattern and contrast of a Suri (Notice the head shape). While the Argentine cross has the pattern of the Argentine with enhanced color from the Colombian.

I had planned to breed them together, sadly the female passed away last year.

or does that cross look very similar to the Aztec boas. I'm not saying anything, about anything, just an observation from looking at a photogragh.

Kathy

Denny is always telling me how observant you are Kathy. I must admit that I have to agree. You are an observant one aren't you!

The Aztecs are Co-Dom....

I saw most of the litter...although I did not see the normals...I was told that there were normals produced and the Genetics worked Co-Dom...Not Reccessive as you suspect. Just my 2 cents...Andy
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Just a slight correction. They have proved dominant. I dont believe a super has been produced yet. V

that they have been proven Dominant then. Until it is known if there is a Super it would be better to say it acts in a dominant fashion.

If it passes in the first generation outcrossing, it's proven dominant.

Only difference being in a codom trait the homozygous phenotype differs from the heterozygous.
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Take Care,

-Ryan Homsey

www.topnotchboas.com

if the Homozygous version has a different phenotype then it would be proven co-dominant. See what I mean, instead of saying it is proven one way to change it later, I think it is better to say it acts one way, but it isn't proven which of the two yet.

listen to yourself. You are saying the same thing I am. The gene IS proven Dominant. It is...it has been by the breeding's already done. Can that change yes...if a super is produced, but right now the gene is proven Dominant. That is not to say that it can't and wont be proven Co-dominant just that at this moment in time it has only been PROVEN Dominant. Get it???

it is anything special, I do have to wonder.

The problem is, I have nothing to breed him to. He was born in 2003 and last year and this year he gets really active around this time and tends to strike when I open the cage to change the water or clean it. Other times he doesn't. I think the behavior is his desire to breed, but I don't have plans to. Although I must admit I would like to see what the results are. I just didn't want to breed him to anything because he is a cross, and I don't really want crossed blood. If I bred him to an imperator morph I'd have the Argentine blood I don't want, and if I bred him to an Argentine morph, I'd have the Colombian blood I don't want.

Oh well.

I didn't pay attention to them. Then I later asked the breeder and he told me the history.

I also saw the similarity. I doubt mine is anything but a cross. The reason I like the Argentine crosses so much are cases like this, and the Albinos with the same pattern. This is the reason I think the Aztec is such a great morph, I can get the pattern with prettier colors.

"Argentish"

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Take Care,

-Ryan Homsey

www.topnotchboas.com

Jeff,

I have about 40 Argentine Cross Columbian Babies, and I have actually noticed quite the opposite. Maybe I kept all the ones that I thought resembled Argentine More, but the Majority of mine have more of the Argentine Pattern. In fact when babies, some of them almost look 100 percent Argentine, while I have never had some of them look 100 percent Columbian.

I'll post some pictures. I didn't see this thread untill today for some reason. I have bred quite a few crosses, and I even have some argentine blood into the Sunglows this year, and they are some of the Best Sunglows I have ever seen. I'll post pics later next week. Have a good weekend. Jeremy