Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok this past weekend a friend and I went to a local reptile show I saw a snake there that I REALLY wanted,trouble is it looked terrible. VERY skinny I inquired as why it was so skinny. The reply that I got back was that she was bred this year and had laid seven good eggs. Which I dont doubt sue to him having babies on his table. This snake is only about 18-20 inches long and so VERY thin. What is the best method of bringing her back or is she a lost cause? I would post pics but Im embarressed to admit I spent the money on a snake that is this bad off.

Breeding a snake small seems to be a common thing as per this show, I seen several snakes there that were small (IMHO) and speaking with the owner and being told that they were proven breeders, Is it just me or do this seem crazy? I know there might be exceptions, but a Cal King bred at 22 inches?
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www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

Toby,

Go back and read some of FR's posts on breeding snakes. A snake that is small has no bearing on the health of the animal at breeding time. If a female will cycle anyway and if its doing what nature intended then thats what it is supposed to be doing.

However the owner might have depleted the snake because he did not feed the snake for whatever reason. Hope you get it started with small meals and that it has no other problems besides the fact it is thin from laying.

Now go ahead and tell us what it is you got.

All at the same time. I believe that in the wild a snake may breed that small, BUT the female will know whether or not it is time for her to breed or she is well enough to breed AND she always has an escape route. In our homes they dont not have these options when put into a cage with a male.By having them in our homes we dictate and control some of the options they have.

In making the same point just because a 11 year old little girl gets her period does that mean its time for her to breed??? NO I think not.

I was discussed to see at that show what some people had been breeding, I have to wonder what bearings it has on the offspring. Maybe I'm just venting.
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www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

Hey Toby

FR is right a female wont breed and produce young unles she is ready. You cant force a female snake to lay eggs if A. she doesnt want to or B. She isnt biologically capable. A female snake is ready when she is ready be it 7" or 37". The example of an 11 year old girl getting her period is more of a society thing in that its taboo for our kids to have babies at that age or even sex for that matter ! But taboo's and society aside she is by nature ready to produce offspring, biologically that is. I have 2 daughters so I dont want to think about it anymore LOL

Keith
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I think it’s all about the hormones and phernomes. If the female has come of biological age, her number of lifetime days mean little. If she’s producing all the signals, she attracts a mate. She becomes receptive. Even if she is small, she will maybe have a small clutch or small eggs. I agree w. FR that it is a lot healthier for her to breed and lay the eggs, even slugs, than ovulate and not breed at all. I disagree that a snake laying in a big tub under a piece of glass is any better or more natural than tricking them into laying in a deli cup full of vermiculite. I would suggest he do a “rotten hollow log” experiment. I bet that would work pretty good too. Just not very practical, or as he would probably admit, necessary.

At least with constrictors, every healthy wild snake I have ever found has been much stronger than long term captives of the same size.

Also, as FR has pointed out, snakes in captivity seem to often hold back their clutches, I'm guessing because they don't think they have found a suitable nesting site.

Combine those with a snake of small size, and you are just asking for the death of the mother if you breed her under 3 feet.

Maybe if you have the ability to provide the elaborate nesting conditions that FR can provide it wouldn't be as dangerous, but I'm guessing very very few people do that.

That's just my opinion.
I'd rather hold off on breeding by a year than increase the risk of death or injury to a snake because I bred her before she was ready, even if she was biologically capable of breeding.
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3.0 WC; 0.2 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

btw - even if they breed young in the wild, do we know survival statistics for a sub 2' female mating and laying eggs?

In the wild, perhaps the ability to do that is selected for by nature. Natural selection pretty much goes out the window in captive propogation programs.
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3.0 WC; 0.2 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

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Genesis 1:1

Cracked me up. Also thanks for your input, Its what the forum is all about,hearing a multitude of opinions and ways of doing things.
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www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

You chosing to breed or not breed is very very funny. Snakes indeed reproduce at half their adult size, in fact, most reptiles do.

This is normal and occurs naturally without problem.

When there is problems in captivity, its not the snakes fault. They are very good at laying eggs. Its the keepers fault for not providing decent nesting and decent support after laying.

Sir, its not the decision to allow breeding, often times its much worse to not breed a cycled female. Much much worse. Its far more difficult to absorb ovum under marginal conditions, they lay fertile eggs. Laying fertile eggs is by far the easist event of the several options a female snake or reptile can do. That is, if supported properly.

The only reason I mention this is, your promoting poor husbandry by blaming small females. Instead of blaming poor keepers, using poor husbandry. If you would blame the keeper and their husbandry, then you fellas would find reason to better your husbandry(nesting techniques).

For instance, I show kings nesting a day to four days after shedding, They can be tiny and have no problems, they do not appear skinny after laying and continue to feed and grow during the time they are gravid and immediately after they lay. These females often double clutch and sometimes triple clutch. Let me tell you, I do not feed nearly as much as some of you.

The key to understanding why theres a problem with smaller females is this, they have less reserves to fight off your(maybe not yours, just the average) very marginal nesting methods. In otherwords, they become highly stressed not because they are small, but because the methods used are very marginal.

These methods are harmful to even the most healthy large female, it merely does not kill them. But it does hinder them.

Sorry for the rant, but its very painful to me to see, kingsnake nesting(squirting out eggs in a clear tupperware) in poor conditions. Sir, they give their lifes to reproduce and poor husbandry willingly takes their lifes, needlessly. Would you force a sparrow to lay eggs on a pane of glass??? no nesting material what so ever????? of course not. If you kept birds, you would provide a nice wooden nestbox with lots of soft material for the hen to make a nest. Yet many of you keepers force kingsnakes(the animals you love) to nest where you can see and photograph them, you know, very adverse conditons, akind to a sparrow laying on a pane of glass.

Good luck with the female, unless there is organ damage, under decent husbandry it will bounce back quickly. Cheers and again sorry for the rant.

You can tell from the side of the cage, the substrate was about eight inches deeper. I had to "dig" to retrieve the eggs. I would think that is normal. Has anyone found natural snake eggs without digging?

Heres a new clutch of eggs, with hatchlings for the same females first clutch. Hatching on the same day, how funny. Cheers

Its not a rant to me. I look forward to your insight each time you respond. Although I do admit I have a hard time sometimes understanding you points but I welcome your thoughts and insight.
You have a very good point,maybe it is more the keepers fought than the kept. Years back I bred a female that was on the small side but healty, after she laid she ate one time and never ate again and wasted away. I "assumed" she was to small to have breed and havent chanced it again. Your "rants" really makes me stop and think about alot of things,so when you reply to one of my post.....please feel free to rant..lol.
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www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

Its really not against anybody in specific. But as you have seen, nesting by most keepers is very marginal. In fact, from my adapted point of view, is horrible.

As I worked with many nesting snakes, lite is a key factor. They simply cannot have lite on the eggs. Its not the lite thats the problem, but if there is lite, then there is air movement. Its a key they understand.

In the old days, snakes would lay in the water bowl. No nesting was offered. The books at the time said, you can tell when your snake is ready to lay, when its ready you can see its backbone and ribs. As we should know by now, its not ready, its past ready and approaching death. If there is no option, they lay in the water bowl. So it was recomended that we then take the water bowl out. Now consider, the backbone and ribs is a expression of dehydration.

Back to now. So now most people have no problem getting eggs from snakes. An occasional egg is held and also an occasional snake is totally bound with eggs. Oh of course, small females should not be bred because they will fail. Does this mean old females will fail too??? So the average method is only good for middle aged healthy females. hmmmmmmmm Of course my recomendation is change the method to work with young, middleaged and old. And work with marginally healthy females too. Maybe even unhealthy females. You see, these methods exsist.

Of course, if a female cycles in nature, a male will breed it, on one is there to say its too small. In fact, the majority of breedings are with small young females. Again thanks for understanding. Cheers

22 inches is too small to breed.
Some people say if they are big enough to mate they are big enough to breed, but captive snakes and wild snakes are two different things.

I would honestly suspect that the snake did not breed, and has some kind of medical problem.
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3.0 WC; 0.2 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

had a similar experience recently,but this was a freebie in return for a smallish favor.this girl had mites,and is,believe it or not,an '05(!)....looks like a freakin' '06 she's so small.she was in a school classroom,obviously undernourished.but i quarantined her,treated her and her enclosure for mites,she shed,i gave her a little meal,and am gonna treat her again,maybe give her another small meal today...closely monitoring her weight,of course.here's a pic today,she shed about 2 days ago.got her last saturday.

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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

Toby,

I have seen this at a lot of shows. I think it is a new fad going on, as it appears that people think, " wow, she wants to breed, so it must be ok." Well, I would have to differ with that opinion.

Just because something CAN or has the ability, it doesn't always make it right:
Drug addicts WANT to do drugs.
Overeaters WANT to eat too much.

So with that being said, I have talked with many breeders over the years and most would feel the same way as I do: Too many are breeding snakes at too early of an age or too small. I am talking mainly about kings, milks, and corns. The snakes are not requesting to be bred at 18 months or 2 years or at 22 inches. And if they produce eggs, so what? Like you used as your example in another post, if an 11 year old has her period, it still doesn't mean she is ready for sex.

Do people have clutches of eggs hatch from breeders too small? Yep. Are all the babies sick at birth? Nope, but I have seen very, very small babies from parents that were not what I would consider old or big enough. I have seen babies that did fine as well. Is breeding early always failsafe? In my opinion, absolutely not. To me, it is too much of a risk, so why bother until the snake is really at a good, maximum size?

If that cal king you purchased was 22 inches and bred at that length, then there is no excuse for that. IMO, that is way too small. I do have some experience in this as well, as I bred a cal king once that was about that same size, and she did not fare well and did not make it. This was more of an experiment, and I had heard that it could be done. Well, my snake didn't make it. The eggs were so stinking big that it made me realize that me allowing that to happen was a big mistake.

But it isn't just that example that I go by. You see a lot of snakes at these shows that are being sold as proven breeders that flat out show a snake that was put through what I call the Jon Bonet syndrome: The owner didn't let the snake have a childhood and made her act like an adult before she was completely mature, in both years and physical makeup. You can always tell the snakes that were sped fed and bred too young usually. A lot of times, they have no neck, have a stumpy appearance, and their girth is twice as round as one that was not sped fed and forced to grow too quick.

When I bred snakes, back in the nineties, it was common to think and believe that a cal king should be bred at 3 years old and about 3 feet in length. Well, I stuck to that with my other snakes and enjoyed many huge clutches of healthy eggs and healthy babies. I can't even remember an egg going bad. I am in no way patting my back at all, but just using that as an example of waiting till the snake is bigger than these two feet long snakes I have seen and known about. I would have my adult cal kings grow to well over four feet, produce 12-14 eggs and the babies were in great condition and size.

And when you breed snakes, wouldn't this be a summary of your goals somewhat?:

1. I want to have my adult snakes in their most prime condition to be able to breed and what is best for them is my number one goal.
2. I want to have my baby snakes to hatch and be the healthiest they can be.

Why can't people wait until their cal kings are that big? It can only take 3 years. They grow fast, and I have heard about some breeding at 18 months. I still highly disagree with that, but that is just my opinion.

I feel that those that breed snakes too young and too quick are doing that out of selfishness, plain and simple. What other reason is there? This is not to raise tempers, but to just simply state the obvious. They could wait until their female cal kings are older and longer, but they just simply do not want to. It is exciting to breed and to see what your snakes will produce. There is nothing wrong with that. But why not wait a little longer to have better results, not stunt the female's growth, produce bigger babies, and the life expectancy of the snake to be at its' very longest? Isn't that part of caring for your animals to begin with? That way, your hobby and/or business does better in the long run?

This was all my opinion and if some differ, then so be it. We can differ in good conscience and agree to disagree. Thanks for reading.

Take care!
Billy

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Genesis 1:1

If you are breeding for new morphs you will have a different mindset. You look at the parents as expendable in a way. Sad but true. You might need to produce from hets, then power up the young to breed back to parent. Nobody wants to wait three years if you can get there in eighteen months. Often if the prize is produced, there is no desire for the hets anymore, they are disposed of by selling them off. Those little gems are then raised as you suggest, by properly raising them for three years to have healthy large clutches. Sometimes those little puny snake mill mommas are a by-product of the morph race. It happens.

It very much is sad but true and I completely see what you are saying. I have breeder friends that do that as well. What you have said also proves my point even more, as it shows the race to get the first of the certain kind of whatever the fastest. The parents being looked at as expendable is very sad. The breeders then need to ask themselves, " Am I doing this for me and what I can attain, or doing this for the better of my animals.?"

Thanks!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

In answer to your comment here-
The breeders then need to ask themselves, " Am I doing this for me and what I can attain, or doing this for the better of my animals.?"

No doubt about it whatsoever- do not be afraid to say, type or read it-
“I am doing this for me and what I can attain.”
Not right or wrong (o.k., maybe it is wrong) just simple and very rare TRUTH.
But it is common to every hobby and interest of humans everywhere. Please don’t take offence and try to be Holy about it. This hobby is no sacred thing. Accept the truths about it, it is completely normal and for some totally justified. Understand some would be appalled, same as every instance of it in every other hobby and interest. There are other breeder hobby types, including top show dogs, etc, where the common practice is to cull- kill, there’s no teddy bear way of masking it- at least there is a market for the ones that don’t fit into your project plan. I don’t thing culling is practiced by any hobby reptile breeder I know of. We are way better than most, believe it or not.

No doubt about it whatsoever- do not be afraid to say, type or read it-
“I am doing this for me and what I can attain.”
Not right or wrong (o.k., maybe it is wrong) just simple and very rare TRUTH.
But it is common to every hobby and interest of humans everywhere. Please don’t take offence and try to be Holy about it. This hobby is no sacred thing. Accept the truths about it, it is completely normal and for some totally justified. Understand some would be appalled, same as every instance of it in every other hobby and interest. There are other breeder hobby types, including top show dogs, etc, where the common practice is to cull- kill, there’s no teddy bear way of masking it- at least there is a market for the ones that don’t fit into your project plan. I don’t thing culling is practiced by any hobby reptile breeder I know of. We are way better than most, believe it or not.
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Genesis 1:1

I hear what you are saying and see your point of view and actually would not necessarily disagree with everything you said and would basically agree with this. Good post! I am just referring to the selfishness of only being in this hobby for the monetary aspect ( which only few really attain ), and the quick way some breeders are maintaining animals to get a quick return, without really putting their own goals into question, while the animal is the one being sped fed, forced to grow up quicker than normal, and lays all the eggs.

Take care!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

You might also think about the racks of feeder rodents. It looks deplorable and it stinks etc, etc. Then if you get the chance to see a real laboratory rodent breeding rack, you see it is just as deplorable and stinks just the same! Some people raise these things as pets too! Where every little mouse has it’s own little exercise wheel. Life just aint always fair.

That sometimes people get caught up in a race to produce the next big thing. Whether it is right or wrong is up to each person. I have enjoyed reading everyones responces.
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www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

WHAT KIND OF SNAKE IS THAT?!?! i know its a cal king but the morph. I found one of those in the wild but some moron s hot it with an airsoft gun before i could get it so it bit me 3 times and squirmed out of my hands.

My fav----Philippians 4:13

Well, according to my knowledge, it is a het for blue eyed blonde cal king-Vivid line. Thank you for the compliment! And that is a great scripture!

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

My young female cal king is only about 24 inches or so.
I suspect she is an '05 but I can't be sure. There's no way I'm going to breed her next year. If she's not 36 inches by November 15th (I highly doubt she will be) then she will be not be brumated this winter.

Because she is such an unusual Cal, I'm damn curious what her first and second generation offspring will look like, but curiosity kills cats - it shouldn't kill snakes.

Back in the 80s when there was rarely a week when I didn't bring something home, I never brought home a gravid cal kingsnake or gopher snake that was under 3 feet. If it was under 3 feet, it never was gravid - I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm sure it does, and my data is anectdotal - but I don't think it happens that often in the wild, not for getula anyway (except maybe the smaller subspecies).

That being said - I think I am going to experiment with FRs nesting method. My two big cal kings mated a week ago, I don't know if it was succesful - but if she does broaden, I'm going to try and set her up with an underground moist nesting site and see how soon after shed she actually lays. But even if I figure out how to duplicate FRs method, I just don't think it is worth it to breed them smaller than the gravid females I use to find as a kid - all of which were bigger than 3 feet.
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3.0 WC; 0.2 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 WC; 10 eggs (7/11) Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

See, and I think that you will have great results with your snakes laying eggs, etc. due to letting them get bigger. I am not saying waiting is 100% foolproof and you will never experience any problems, but I believe maturity in age AND longer length was the major reason I had so many good results, and other breeders I have known over the years that stuck with that logic as well. Your snakes will be much healthier for that as well, IMO.

For nesting boxes, I would fill up a shoebox with moist spaghnum moss I would buy at a local nursery ( rinse it and wring it out ), and then cut a hole on top of the lid so they would get that " going underground " feeling somewhat. I had great results with this.

Take care!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Billy,

I have bred very small females and they come out like champs. Its all on how you feed them before and after egglaying. This year I bred an 18 inch brooksi twice and she is looking fat as can be. I will post a pic of her later.

So being 18 inches, bred twice, plus being fat, and that is good? IMO, you would have had better results just waiting till she was 3 years and 3 feet. The risks of being stunted, shorter lifespan, etc. are way bigger when bred that young, IMO. Brooksi are big kings, so that should have been no problem. We just will have to agree to disagree on this my friend.
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Genesis 1:1

Billy,
I don't know where you are getting your info/data. Did you read the above post by FR? He basically pioneered snake breeding in the 70's because of his understanding of the ecology of kingsnakes. He has furthered this by breeding monitors which no one knew how to do, up to that point..

I also have first hand experience with breeding small snakes and what you say about breeding them small makes them stunted is simply not true. I breed small and they still turn into large healthy monster for their species.

I have also watched people like Lloyd Lemke and other larger breeders practice this. All the while they are laughing at smaller breders who "think" they are doing the animal a service by waiting a year. It used to be a good secret. Now its still misinformation.

Just curious because I wonder how you came to these conclusions because it sound like the typical bad info that is being passed around out there. Not to get on yanking your chain or anything but if people like FR and other top breeders with lots of experience what data are you gathering from? It seems you are not taking from the years of experience into account that larger long time breeders like myself have.

One other point is I have had more health problems by excluding a small but healthy female from being with male than not. In other words it is actually healthier for them. to breed than holding for a larger size. Larger unbred snakes seem to have a harder time adjusting to the yearly cycles that breeders put them through.

This is much like farming. Actually it really is farming but on a smaller scale. It would seem in the best interest of the farmer to have females that can produce longer and more consistent litters. so wouldn't be best to take info from what large scale breeders are doing since their data is far greater than someone breeding a few snakes in their basement> Then there is year of making mistakes and adusting certin thing to insure a healthier larger clucth size. If large scale farming for colubrids tells us anything its understanding the natural ecology of that snake and trying to reproduce it in its most natural conditions and what is most natural...thermoregulating, food, nesting ect. The beeter we do this and understand the snake the better results we will achieve. Trying to tell the snake what is best is not. Thats putting the snake into a box (literally).

Oh,I would exclude data like the example of smaller females being sold at shows. It is obvious that if the breeder was selling a smaller (thin) snake the best excuse is that it just laid. But if the snake was a good breeder and fat they would not be selling it in the first place. I have had some fincky feeders and smaller "runts" of a group. Breeding them and then selling them does not make a rule of thumb and should not be considered valid in proving smaller breeding females will hurt of stunt their growth..

I have come to my conclusion very much the same way you claim: through years of being in this hobby, first hand experience with breeding, breeding literature, and knowing breeders, that have been breeding from the 70s, that would share my opinions.

" It would seem in the best interest of the farmer to have females that can produce longer and more consistent litters"

....and big breeders I know have done that by waiting to breed kingsnakes at the age of 3 and or appr. 3 feet.

I actually would not know one breeder that would breed a king at 18 inches. Please don't insinuate that what I have been posting are breeding opinions that are not common. I am not saying you are, but it seems you are giving off this idea that breeding snakes too young is new common knowledge and what I am saying is old news. That could not be farther from the truth.

Take care and we may just have to agree to disagree. I bet that you have seen over the years that not everyone shares the same view on everything in this hobby. Thank you for your reply!

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

i agree with your logic it shows alot common sense.

Thanks Jetzen!
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Genesis 1:1