Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I asked this question before without any responses. Anyway, does anyone have any idea of what the lifespan is for tri-color hognose? It it on par with other hognose? Do they lay eggs often because they have a short lifespan and need to do so for that reason? Any opinions? What is the longest any of you have kept one? Thanks.
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Steve W.

Females seem to be in my experience about 4 years, even when rested from mating.
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www.hognose.co.uk

that would be short....its like you don't buy these .....you rent them!!!!!

That's not long at all. Seems to be about 1/4 - 1/3 of the average colubrid lifespan. Maybe this is why the "big" breeders have not addressed this question. It's bad for business.
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Steve W.

hi,

mine (male and female) are 5 yaers old and still breeding.

regards,
alexander
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1.1 Lystrophis semicinctus
2.1 Heterodon nasicus
2.1 Lamprophis lineatus
2.3 Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Ahaetulla prasina (looking for male)
1.1 Cryptelytrops macrops

Sorry for my sometimes bad english...

I just bought a pair...male 6 female 4.......she died.....week after I got her.........there went $400........hmmm.......

..I figured they lived 20 years like most colubrids....

guess I have 3 years left on my baby girl??....

seems odd........4.........even at 10 it sounds short
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................................................it's a buyer's market......
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There are 2 of us breeding tri-colours in the Uk, i rang the other guy and he agreed, about the same. Perhaps by feeding them exclusivley rodents were are cutting down thier life expectancy? As Im sure 90% of thier diet in the wild would be amphibs.

I am acutally keeping mine a bit leaner now, my big girl who was 380g died recently and on autopsy she was grossly obese inside with fat from her neck to her cloaca.):
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www.hognose.co.uk

>>I am acutally keeping mine a bit leaner now, my big girl who was 380g died recently and on autopsy she was grossly obese inside with fat from her neck to her cloaca.):
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Many captive reptiles that are overweight end up dying from fatty liver disease. It would be great if we knew for sure if it the type of food contributed to that or just too much of it coupled with relatively little activity ... maybe we don't even give them optimal choices of temperatures and humidity. There's a lot of possibilities

has anyone ever done any research to determine that an animal has actually died from fatty liver disease. Or is this a term thats been made up in the herp world. Any veterinarians here to comment?
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Steve W.

Hi all,
I'm not a Vet, but I have done some reading. I also have kept hognoses for many years on all rodent diets, with no apparent ill effects. A good point was raised here (and has been repeatedly raised). As far as hognose snakes go, is this disease more prevalant? I'll defer to the expertise of a Vet if they are on this list, so please, remember that this is only my take and personal opinion. Its not meant to be etched in stone.

Fatty liver disease is not a made up disease at least in the realm of humans. It is also called hepatic steatosis. There is a non-alcoholic and alcoholic form in humans. For a list of causes in humans see: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/nonalcoholic-fatty-liver-disease/DS00577/DSECTION=3

As far as I can tell, from numerous attempts, I can not substantiate (or can others that I know have diligently tried) to find any Veterinary reports showing an increase incidence of fatty liver disease in hognose snakes (specifically), and as a cause of mortality. With that said, I'm willing to still be objective without actual studies to look at this topic. I tried to get something going at one time, but the birth of my daughter took up a lot of time. Without controlled studies, with one group of hognoses being raised on amphibians, and one on rodents, with detailed physiological parameters taken along the way. . .the jury is still out.

With that said, I think some of the posts get nearer to the truth. A combination of factors might lead to decline and a "syndrome" that people "might" have labled "fatty liver." That is if there really is such a "syndrome." I'm willing to keep my mind open on the subject. I do believe that hognose snakes can and do become obese from power feeding of fattier items. I also personally believe that when fed mice rather then amphibian foods, they should be fed at a different frequency (my opinion only). There is also some evidence that lab mice might have higher levels of Vitamin A from their mouse chow diets.

In the wild, eastern hognoses go through periods of long movements over acres, with longer periods of affinity to one area (at least in Upstate NY, I assume in other States they may do things differently). It is also a life of feast or famine. At times they may sit in one main area, but on a daily basis forage about, moving in and out of the sun, in and out of brush, and hunting by constant travel. This is widely different then the situation they usually find themselves in captivity.

I make sure that my snakes can get some exercise. This is just difficult for some. But careful handling can sometimes meet this need. I also go by a rule that is controversial, but I still stick to. Undernutrition without malnutrition. That is, I don't power feed, and I don't over feed. I keep the animals svelt, and similar to the way I would find one upon capture. That means some weeks with no food, fresh water. Other weeks, one or two mice. Chunky, a bit slim (for a hog), yet robust and active. A skinny hognose is easy to tell, in that the skin quickly wrinkles up on the body. Just check out a female after laying a huge egg clutch....they really take a beating.

So, my take on the issue that is brought up every few months. We just need the research to prove it, and the Veterinary documentation to show the occurance.

With the number of people on this list, maybe we can all make an unwritten deal to report all deaths of hognoses when a Vet reports it as "fatty liver" disease? That way we could start to get at least some documentation to understand things when this thread is raised again. It sure would help to put the topic to rest as it relates to the understanding of future husbandry.

Best,
Kenny

>>Maybe this is why the "big" breeders have not addressed this question. It's bad for business.
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That a bit presumptious and cynical (I never thought I'd be accusing someone else of that. I admit it, I don't have the highest regard for the integrity of a typcal reptile dealer but many of the hognose enthusiasts i've met aren't like that). Keep in mind the time of year also. Large breeders are swamped or preparing for Daytona this week and not participating in forums as much, if they ever did.

You're right though, that would be a very short lifesapn, but is it typical? Let's get more than one person's input. I didn't respond to the question because I haven't been working with them long enough to ever have one die. They haven't been in herpetoculture in large numbers very long.
LP

I understand what you're saying about the breeders preparing for the show, but this is a re-post that wasn't addressed the first time around. But what I said about not getting a response on the subject may be valid. After all, paying $200 for a single snake gets a little scary when you find out it "may" have a short life span. How many other snakes do you know of that produces at the rate of tri-colors and at such a young age? Is the rate because of a longevity factor. I don't know but the more input on the subject the better. To address the statement about past availability. Tri-colors are not new to the hobby. They were readily available years ago for as little as $15.00 from importers. Obviously this is where the present day animals originated from. These are the people we need to here from. They should have the most information to give on the subject.
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Steve W.

These are experiences of the only 2 people in the Uk breeding them, from what i can gather talking to jim mcdonald, i also get higher egg yeilds but much smaller eggs and babies. I have lost several hogs, several hondurans,sevral bullsnakes, a couple of corns, and 3 tri-colours and an argentinian long nose tree snake this year. To what?

I have had them autopsied and thay were all(with the exception of one that had a perforated stomach due to a claw/tooth) very fatty inside and had severely fatty livers.

Why? I think i know. My friend is a rat/mouse breeder. last year he did me a deal on 1000 mice. Unfortunately, after the first 100 he had a massive wipeout of mice so supplied me with week old rats which all my snakes relished, but after feeding them fatty week old rats for a year i bagan to lose a few snakes, snakes whcih looked fantastic, rounded but with no fatty tissue around the tails etc.

One female hog laid her eggs, and i gabe her a handful of 4-5 day old rats, she ate the lot and again a few days later, then suddenly died, the report said:

195g female, in good body condition, externally no abnormalities seen, internal examination all normal, except very pale liver (see JPG650), which is friable to the touch and swollen, and intracoelomic fat bodies slimy in appearance. Cause of death is herpetic lipodosis, this is a due to having rapid absorption of fat, which can be due to a primary anorexia or in this case egg laying, the predisposing factor in these cases is obesity thus having a high body fat percentage, which when absorbed take all of the liver to process (clog liver up with fat if you like) and cause acute liver failure.

The female that died from the puncture wound was pretty much in the same condition:

195g female, obese body condition, externally no abnormalities seen, internal examination massive amounts of fat everywhere, has full thickness penetration of stomach (see JPG649) area approximately 3mm round has caused food to leak out of GI tract and cause a terminal abscess in which the pus weighs 2gms and is solid and dry in nature (JPG648), this snake would have died of acute septicaemia, antibiotics would not have altered the out come in this case

This was a bull snake:

610g female, good to obese body condition, externally no abnormalities seen, internally massive amounts of fat, otherwise all normal .

I am now only feeding one prey item a week and its mice only, i will them, when they wake from hibernation next year feed then every other week.

Just for the records, i fed 1-2 items per week, and never ever powerfed.
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www.hognose.co.uk

This is what the friable liver looked like:

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www.hognose.co.uk

You hit the nail on the head. Fatty liver disease.
Many people refuse to acknowledge this as a legitimate cause of death among hognosed snakes but it has also been suspected in the deaths of womas and blackheads.

In the wild Lystrophis are very thin snakes and do not look at all like the snakes we see in retail. In the wild, most Lystrophis feed primarily on lizards and amphibians, rarely mice.

Throughout the range of Lystrophis the species Mus musculus is introduced and occupies primarily urban areas, not areas inhabited by Lystrophis. The primary genera of mice in Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay and Uruguay, and Bolivia are:

Akodon
Calomys
Juliomys
Neacomys
Oecomys

These are mice found in swamps, grasslands, pampas, and riparian edges. They are primarily insect and grass eaters, less so grain and rarely processed foods.

The food on which the domestic mice are fed may have an indirect bearing on the physiological health of the snakes as well.

Still, these genera of mice seem to make up a very small portion of the diets of the Lystrophis occupying those habitats.

There is also a tendency for American herpetoculturists to overfeed their pets, especially many breeders who wish to powerfeed their animals in order to get them up to size for breeding. This places a great strain on the heart, liver, and circulatory system (see studies done on other animals for comparisons).

There may also be a biochemical relationship between a specific diet in the wild and the diet fed to Lystrophis in captivity. Meanwhile, a short lifespan may the direct result of insufficient knowledge of this groups habits in the wild.

Eastern hognosed snakes are extremely susceptible to genetic problems and parasite loads which translates to shortened lifespans. Since there have been few studies detailing the longevity of easterns (or Lystrophis) in the wild, it is difficult to say what the norm is....

Hognose Home Page

If a snake has "fatty liver" then the cause of death sound good. But if the snake is relatively slender and not overfed what then? We can't assume that every short lived snake has died from fatty liver disease. I had an adult male die at about three years old and it was by no means overfed. If anything it was lean. I see that this is not too uncommon of a problem.
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Steve W.

hi,

i don't want to criticize you guys, but have you ever thougt of that the short lifespan may be caused by breeding with them too early?
a few weeks ago i red in another post here on kingsnake.com that it is normal in the US to breed with tri hogs beeing about one year old.
in nature those snakes breed for the first time at an age of about 3 yaers, because they grow much slower than in captivity.
feeding too much an breeding too early may cause a damage/illness of the inner organs which will shorten their lifespan.
as i told, mine are 5 years old now, still breeding and in good condition. i feed every 8-10 days, alternating mice and geckos.
i think 8 years will be no problem for them.

regards,
alexander
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1.1 Lystrophis semicinctus
2.1 Heterodon nasicus
2.1 Lamprophis lineatus
2.3 Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Ahaetulla prasina (looking for male)
1.1 Cryptelytrops macrops

Sorry for my sometimes bad english...

Few cultured serpents do produce the number of clutches that Tri-colored species do. I have had 5 clutches per summer from different females for three years now. These females are now 5 years old. I too was concerned about the energy that these females were expelling to eggs production. I have made an attempt to reduce the number and size of food items to the females to hopefully trigger no ovulation/follicle development. But it does not seem to work.

I have no real additional information to add, but rest assured, if my females pass away this year I will post their demise. I would think males would go ten years at least. Any expererince with Eastern Hognose breeders that feed only on mice, I know they do not drop the number of clutches that Tris do, but that can be Huge clutches. Good Thread.

Ken Diehl

With regards to the early breeding, i have discussed this with people on here, but i have never bred one younger than about 2.5years, and three years. Mine get one prey item a week now, and separating them from the males wont owrk, they just carry on laying infertile. I havent managed to keep a male much over 4 either ):
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www.hognose.co.uk

Thanks for your "up-front" posts, My males are over 4 years old, I sure hope it is a UK thing and a US thing (LOL). I really like these serpents!

Keep you posted on my Tris life span.

Ken Diehl

I have sat on the info for months trying to decide what to do with it, I was a bit embarassed at first, and was accused of power feeding but i really dont. I think the week old rats were really too fatty one fact i forgot to mention is that all the snakes also had low calcium levels due to eating prey with no properly formed bones which didnt kill them but would have caused problems with egg laying, which is when my female snow honduran died. ):
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www.hognose.co.uk

hi ken, s
so where are you from?

regards,
alexander
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1.1 Lystrophis semicinctus
2.1 Heterodon nasicus
2.1 Lamprophis lineatus
2.3 Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Ahaetulla prasina (looking for male)
1.1 Cryptelytrops macrops

Sorry for my sometimes bad english...

Hi, I live in San Antonio Texas, been at this Herpetoculture hobby for a number of decades. I hope the "fatty" rat pinks/pups were the demise of the other adult Tris, we will see.

Ken Diehl

Im sure they were for the 2 i lost this year, but i havent had one last much longer that was fed purely on mice. Is there anyone in the US that feeds thiers amphibs?
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www.hognose.co.uk