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Just a couple things I'm hoping someone can clarify for me. I'm seeing Surinam, Guyana, Columbian, etc red tails. What are the differences between the different kinds. I know some are more rare and I assume it's because they come from different areas. But I was wondering are they essentially the same for size, housing/temp requirements, have the same temperment? Also, in the classifieds they have het/hypo morphs (i.e. - het. albinos, but they look regular. What do het./hypo. stand for? I'm thinking het. means they are genetically, say albino for example, but they look normal and will produce albino offspring if bred with another het. albino, and that hypo. means they both look and are genetically predispositioned to produce albino offspring, but again am really not sure. Also, is it possible to get say an albino that just looks albino but genetic wise it would only have the same chance of producing albino offspring as a regular boa?
Wow, nice and long, sorry.
Thanks for any help, Mak

LOL, you came over here for more info. Don't forget the BRB subforum.

Here's a cut/paste of some info I put together a while back on BCI morphs:

Terms:
Gene = the basic unit of genetics, Genes come in pairs, one supplied from each parent. Each gene pair determines one specific trait. There are thousands of gene pairs in each strand of DNA.

Mutant gene = any gene that is different from the corresponding normal gene. Not necessarily a visual mutation.

Wild type or normal = A snake that looks like most of the snakes found in the wild. Also used to describe any individual gene that when paired up with a similar gene would produce a snake that, for that individual gene trait, would look like most of the snakes found in the wild.

Heterozygous (slang - heterozygous) = having two different genes within a gene pair. Most commonly one normal and one mutant but could be two different mutant genes.

Homozygous (slang - Homo) = having both genes within a gene pair the same. Can be normal or mutant.

Super = Slang term commonly used when a snake has a gene pair that is Homozygous for either a dominant or a codominant mutant gene.

Trait = Physical appearance that it distinguishable from the normal physical appearance.

Recessive mutant gene = Trait is only expressed when the gene pair is Homozygous for the specific mutant gene.

Dominant mutant gene = A mutant gene that has it trait expressed when the gene pair is either heterozygous or Homozygous for that specific mutant gene. Heterozygous and homozygous specimens are not 100% distinguishable from each other. Note, with some dominant traits some of the specimens can be visually identified as heterozygous or homozygous.

Codominant = Similar to "dominant mutant gene" except a Homozygous specimen can be distinguished from a heterozygous specimen 100% of the time.

Double heterozygous = Has two gene pairs where one gene in each pair is normal and the second gene is a mutant gene. I.e. double heterozygous for snow would have a normal gene paired with an albino gene and a normal gene paired with an anerythristic gene.

Triple heterozygous = same as double heterozygous except applies to three gene pairs.

Color mutations in boas:

Albino (AKA Amelanistic) - Two independent mutant genes: both recessive - a lack of melanin (black pigmentation) Kahl and Sharp strains.

Anerythristic - Two independent mutant genes; both recessive - a lack of red pigmentation. Two known strains (type I and type II)

Salmon (AKA Hypo) - Dominant - a reduction in the black pigmentation and often some increase in the yellow pigmentation.

Caramel Albino (AKA Tyrosinase positive albino) - believed to be at least two independent mutant genes; both recessive - has less than the normal amount of black pigmentation. Colombian and Nicaraguan strains

Caramel Hypo (Boawoman Hypo) - recessive - has leas than the normal amount of black pigmentation, similar to Colombian T-plus Albinos and Pastels.

Pastel (AKA Hypo) - Polygenic - A line of boas selectively bred for less than normal black pigment, not caused by a single mutant gene.

Blood - Recessive - A Hypererythristic mutation.

Named Color mutation combinations:

Ghost – homozygous anerythristic / heterozygous hypomelanistic
Super Ghost - homozygous anerythristic / homozygous hypomelanistic
Snow – homozygous anerythristic / homozygous albino
Sunglow – homozygous albino / heterozygous hypomelanistic
Super Sunglow - homozygous albino / homozygous hypomelanistic
Bloody Salmon – homozygous blood / heterozygous hypomelanistic
Moonglow – homozygous anerythristic / homozygous albino / heterozygous hypomelanistic
Super Moonglow – homozygous anerythristic / homozygous albino / homozygous hypomelanistic
Pewter - homozygous type II anerythristic / homozygous blood

Locale Related Color Mutations:

Sunset – homozygous hypomelanistic having 50% Hog Island Boa blood
Salmontine – heterozygous hypomelanistic having 50% Argentine Boa blood

Pattern Mutations:
Arabesque – Dominant? - A genetic circle-back boa with a ladder-tail, Typically highly speckled and often having a very brown color with some specimens tinted pink.
Jungle – Codominant - Originally identified in Sweden,
Motley – Codominant
Stripe – Recessive
Reverse Stripe – Recessive?
Leopard – Recessive - dark color, a mix of underlying tones and marbled pattern.
European Square tail - Recessive - long list of variable characteristics.
Scoria - Recessive? - Pink pattern-less with two parallel lines down back.
Aztec - Dominant?
Gray pattern-less - unknown
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
10.22 BRB
10.15 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

You need to change the your inheritance info for the Jungle and the Motley as they have super forms, which I am sure you just over looked!

Al Brown/Brown's Boas

Co-dominant indicated a trait with two visually different (phenotype) forms. The heterozygous motley and jungle are visually (phenotypically) different from the wild or normal type. Additionally the homozygous form of the two traits are visually (phenotypically) different from both the normal and heterozygous form.

If motley and jungle were dominant then weather the individual animal was heterozygous or homozygous they would appear identical to each other.
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- Jason F.

(Jungle & Motley)are "Co-dominant",(not "co-dominate",like alot of websites state.) they fit this catagory because the homozygous form is phenotypiclly different from both the het form & the "normal",or wild type....Dave doesn't need to change his definitions,everyone else needs to read from the same sheet of music! especially as we move forward with new mutations,AND new combinations of the ones we currently acknoledge...the future of "boaculture" is multiple gene carriers!
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HarlequinBoa.com Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

My understanding when you breed a Homozygous mutation all offspring will be Heterozygous. In the case of a SuperJungle bred to a wild type female all babies would be Jungles(Codominat animals with one allele for the gene)thus making the super form Dominat to the wild type! I understand what you are saying about the Super forms being visually different, but Dave should at least include in his sheet that the mutations do have a super forms! Just my two cents.

Al Brown/Brown's Boas

Is that "dominant" is a catagory just as "recessive" is a catagory,within the dominant genetic catagory,there are also "co-dominant",and "incomplete dominant",in verbal description the two sub-catagories can sound identicle,(and in some physical examples they may seem indistinguishable,and be used interchangably,it can often depend on what you're comparing.)we (in the reptile community.)don't recognize any subcatagories within the recessives,everything accepted falls into "simple recessive".
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HarlequinBoa.com Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

I've yet to see anyone come forward,and state,or supply proof that breeding a presumed "super jungle",or a "super motley" to a non-gene carrier has proven homozygousity...so until that happens it's just an assumption,but we clearly have phenotypical evidence to make the "co-dominant" classification until then.
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HarlequinBoa.com Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

Can you please elaborate on incomplete dominance. I have really been studying my genetics, but still have a loose grasp on that form of genetic inheritance. Thanks Vinnie

Cloud anyones perception with alot of my own interpretations,(I have several reasons why I believe it is distictly different from the "co-dominant" classification,we've just never had a clear cut example of it in the boa group.)check out this link,especially the part about intermediate expression...(the whole page has got some good solid meat on it though! some basic,some a bit more complex...) I appreciate your asking though,because I think it's very thought provoking schtuff!
Good stuff

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HarlequinBoa.com Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

Thanks alot Tim!!! I have been really studying genetics alot lately and I know this hobby still has alot to learn. I have been learning the most from sites that are non reptile related. My studying of genetics has actually made me want to go back to school and try to get my degree. Hopefully someday I can afford to actually do it. If there is anything I have learned with time is that knowledge is power, and that's no B.S. Later V

So what you are really trying to say is that a we shouldn't call a "SuperJungle" a Superjungle or a "SuperMotley" a Super Motley since we haven't proven the "Super" part of it yet! Well I am going to keep on calling them "Supers" since they are "Super" to look at. And then once we know they are really "Supers" we can all feel comfortable calling them that! Dead subject for me I am "Phenotypically" and "Genotypically" worn out!

Al Brown/Brown's Boas

These interesting things we stumble across will catagorize themselves through their behavior when bred,if we will maintain enough patience,and an open mind to allow them to do so,and have a consice understanding of the basic criteria for the classifications we then assign them to...it really isn't as hard as everyone would like to make it seem...not at the very basic level we're using it anyway...
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HarlequinBoa.com Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

Your train of thought is correct but there is no need to include that information as it is already denoted by the definition of co-dominant.
Including that information would be redundent sort of like including that concerning the albino trait, the normal (wild type) is dominant to the heterozygous albino gene. This infomation is already implied by the definition of the specific genetic inheritance.
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- Jason F.

Suriname, Guyana, Peruvian and such boas are local specific boas they can get much larger than your average colombian boa in most cases. If you look at them all long enough you will see that they are quite different.

Hets are boas that come from a morph type trait (like albino) they look normal but carry the albino gene. So if bred with another het albino or albino can produce albinos.

Hypos are a morph type that has reduced black pigment and more reds, oranges, pinks, etc.. There is no "het hypo" in the sence that if a boa is a hypo it is a visual hypo. There is no normal colored boa that can produce the hypo morph.

hope that helps.
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com
www.reptileinsider.com

>>Hets are boas that come from a morph type trait (like albino) they look normal but carry the albino gene. So if bred with another het albino or albino can produce albinos.

Het applies to ANY trait whether visual or not. Simply stated means there is one abnormal gene paired with a different gene, typically a "normal" gene but could be a different abnormal gene. No traits in boas have been identified with multiple abnormal genes so for this discussion Het (or heterozygous) means one abnormal gene paired with one normal gene.

>>Hypos are a morph type that has reduced black pigment and more reds, oranges, pinks, etc.. There is no "het hypo" in the sence that if a boa is a hypo it is a visual hypo. There is no normal colored boa that can produce the hypo morph.

Hypo (also referred to as Salmon) is a Dominant abnormal gene. That means the abnormal gene is "stronger" than the normal gene and will show when the animal is heterozygous for that trait. Dominant morphs will also look mostly the same when homozygous or having both abnormal genes within that gene pair.

For example a double het (DH) for sunglow (hypo plus albino)would look like a hypo and have one albino gene.

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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
10.22 BRB
10.15 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Just trying to make it a simple example Dave..
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com
www.reptileinsider.com

Misinforming,simplify it in ANY way Ed?
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EMAIL quit editing my signature!

and you said much better!

That's what I get for writing and rewriting trying to make my point clear. (as mud)

>>Misinforming,simplify it in ANY way Ed?
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>>EMAIL quit editing my signature!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
10.22 BRB
10.15 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

As well as the subsequent ones were absolutely correct,(MHO) and should be re-read until memorized by anyone/everyone that works with genetic mutations!!! (also MHO) keep up the good work!
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EMAIL quit editing my signature!

Thank you, I take that as a VERY nice complement.

>>As well as the subsequent ones were absolutely correct,(MHO) and should be re-read until memorized by anyone/everyone that works with genetic mutations!!! (also MHO) keep up the good work!
>>-----
>>EMAIL quit editing my signature!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
10.22 BRB
10.15 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

>>Just trying to make it a simple example Dave..

But you simplified the example to the point where it was wrong.

When I was new to boa morphs, I heard and read a lot of stuff that was not 100% correct and, at least for this ol' dawg, it was harder to relearn it correctly gthen it would have been to learn it correctly to start. One of which was the same hypo/salmon trait and het status of it that was being discussed. I also learned it as a co-domoinant morph which it is not. I've spent a fair amount of time researching to understand boa morphs, a work in progress as new morphs and even new info on known morphs comes up.

I posted the "long" answer to help this "newbie" if they so desired to really understand the morphs and also to answer the normal follow on questions about other morphs. The cut/paste is by no means fully comprehensive but should be a very good start for anyone new the scene.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
10.22 BRB
10.15 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

By me typing "like albino" was an example of a recessive trait, with a normal apearing het form.

And yes a "co-dominant" hypo is the visualy heterozygous form of the homozygous "dominant" form of a hypo.. but some folks seem to advertise "het for hypos" I thought I'd help out by pointing out theres no normal looking boa het for the hypo morph..

I never said anyones explanation was wrong, just trying to make it understandible to someone asking for help.

Lighten up guys.. I had no beef with anyone, Sorry I didn't write a textbook explanation...LOL... and my simple explanation is correct..
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com
www.reptileinsider.com

there is no such thing as a co-dom hypo and a dominant hypo. they are all dominant some are hetero and some are homo. at work excuse the abbrebiations. V

I didn't pick the nicknames.. Just trying to help make sence of them..
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com
www.reptileinsider.com

I didn't think so by the way you wrote it but I am not the sharpest pencil in the box

You are correct that when an individaul claims a hypo to be co-dominant or dominant they are infact incorrectly using the terms. Additionally you tried to explain the true meaning corresponding to the incorrect usage but if one did not have a good understanding of genetics you could just be confusing them more.

better explanation for what you said:

Co-dominant Hypo (incorrect) = Heterozygous Hypo (correct)
Dominant Hypo (incorrect) = Homozygous Hypo (correct)

As a note, the above is ment to understand what a person is talking about when they incorrectly use the genetic terms. To clarify things the globaly accepted correct terms should be used.

>>I didn't pick the nicknames.. Just trying to help make sence of them..
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>>Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com
>>www.reptileinsider.com
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- Jason F.

Thank you..
If someone is asking for descriptions of whats what using the terms commonly accepted, I just thought it would be easiest for them to get an explanation with those terms used.
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com
www.reptileinsider.com

that these terms are incorrectly used on such a wide scale. We may "feel the current" when using the terms correctly (via the confused)... and thats okay. Eventually the cycle of ignorance will break and we wont have to worry about it anymore.
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Take Care,

-Ryan Homsey

www.topnotchboas.com

since you can not have a het hypo isn't the term double het sunglow misused? Should it not be called a hypo het albino?? I know the dh sunglow has been used forever, but isn't it incorrect? Thanks. Craig Kade

Unless the salmon/hypo mutation is in its homozygous state,then it becomes misleading...first generation hypos produced by a hypo to non-hypo breeding ARE hets! (these are still often refered to by many well meaning breeders as, "co-doms".)
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EMAIL quit editing my signature!

np.

Not to offend anyone who replied (I really appreciate the time you guys are putting into this), but this has gone way over my head. I was thinking this would be a lot simpler, just hoping to understand the terms in the classifieds so when the time comes I would know what I was buying. After reading all this I just can't grasp it right, might take few more reads to "get it" or at least some of it.
Basically what I was looking for is, I was thinking along the lines of getting an albino columbian red tail and have no interest in breeding. Therefore I don't care if would be capable of producing albino offspring and was hoping to save money by getting an albino that just looks albino, but genetically isn't or is say half reg/half albino while retaining a full albino look. But from the what I could get out the replies is this is not possible, correct? (with albino or any morph?)

Sorry guys, DEFINETLY a NEWB when it comes to the genetic side of snakes or anything for that matter, thanks for bearing with me, Mak.

The elusive "false albino",similar I'm told,to the "false anery" *lol* (Just a little levity)...but,no...if you want an albino you'll have to get one that will also be geneticlly inclined to pass the trait when,(or IF) bred. they're becoming pretty affordable now though...sorry we delved into the deeper end of the subject,and veered away from your original inquiry.
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HarlequinBoa.com Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

No apology needed. Thanks for clarifying that, looks like it's I'll just start saving up. No point in getting a reg. when I really want an albino. Next time I'll make my question a little clearer.
Thanks, Mak

P.S. - Do you know of anyone who ships to Canada? Thanks a lot, all the help was greatly appreciated.

false albinos are known as T Pos. Ernie Eison