Reptile & Amphibian Forums

IS feeding my 2 incher gold fish every 2 days too much food? Also when he is 3 inches and i start adding mice to his diet im going to feed 2x a week is that too much? Can i see some examples of someone elses feeding schedule? thanks
Mike

i have a 4" pacman frog and he gets fed one small to medium sized adult mouse once every 3-4 weeks or in a 1 month period i will feed him about 3 dozen 1" crickets or grasshoppers or a mix of about 2 dozen crickets or grasshoppers with a dozen or so superworms/ silkworms/ nightcrawlers/ european red worms/ or some similar mix, depending on what i have at the time. my feeding schedule depends on the when he is awake and unburied.
as for feeding your little guy, what you are talking about is way to frequent feedings. if you fed your frog a mouse of adequate size, then it should only need to be fed once every 2 weeks at the most, not including feeding any other items. as for goldfish, they are a good treat but not always the best source of food.

I have a 1 1/2 yr old Pacman that is approx. 5 Inches. He eats a fuzzy once a month. other foods during that month include a mix of large crickets, goliath worms, waxworms(sparingly because they are high in fat),live-bearing fish like Mollies and Wags, silkworms and butterworms as a special treat. I wouldn't feed gold fish as they are high in saturated fat. They may be a lot cheaper (sometimes .10 @, but in the long run not a good source of protein) Mollies and Wags are more expensive, so I only feed them to the frog once a month.
Usually after his "fuzzy" meal, Vern (my Pacman) doesn't eat for a week or so. When he's ready to eat again, I feed crickets and worms..which should be the bulk of the frogs diet..not mice.
So within a month Vern eats 1 fuzzy, 3 or 4 livebearing fish, and the rest of the time crickets and various worms whenever he wants to eat. Everything fed to the frog is dusted with Sandfire Super Foods Tree Frog Dust by T-Rex. This supplement can be safely used every time you feed your frog. It contains D-3 which is important for bone developement for these large frogs.
Also, I don't feed him superworms. They can bite once inside the frog's stomach. If you do feed them to your frog, remove the worms head before you feed it to the frog.
Hope this helps. I'm sure there are many menu variations among Pacman owners.

i'm glad to se other people feeding variety in the pets diet, most don't. i have only two comments about your post. one, you don't, and shouldn't feed your amphibians dusted prey items at every sitting, it can cause a build up of calcium and other vitamins in the frogs system and can cause premature death, espically in treefrogs. dusting prey is only necessary for about half of the frogs feedings, or only dust one or two items per feeding if feeding things like crickets and worms. i dust my amphibians food twice per week for those who eat 4-5 times per week, once for those who eat 1-2 every week and once for those who eat once every other week or more.
as for the superworm comment, that is pure myth, if superworms are not killed by being crushed or chewed prior to eating, then the stomach acids of the amphibians will kill them quickly if the don't sufficate first. the only time it has shown that a mealworm/superworm killed an amphibian from the inside out was when the frog choked on the superworm and the worm crawled back out its mouth. all that means is that you need to fed your pets the proper sized food.

Interesting on the superworms, but I couldn't feed them to my frogs...they're just nasty looking.
About the dusting..I have been doing it for over four years with my current frogs. I contacted Sandfire Foods when I started using the vitamins and they assured me they were safe. I have found that to be the case.
I have in my collection:
4 very large Whites
3 RETf
2 very large Emerald Greens
3 Mantellas
1 Tiger-legged Monkey
2 Pacman
2 Green tree frogs
Six years ago, when I bought my first 3 Whites, they only live a lttle over six months due to ignorance on my part. I dusted their food too often and the calcium damaged their kidneys.
I decided to get serious about acquiring some knowledge concerning frogs and their habitat. I now give presentations to elementary school children showing the impact the environment has on frogs and what they can do to help.
Have a good day.

glad to see that you are taking aseriuos interest in the hobby and doing your pets justice. i'm in my 16th year of keeping amphibians and have enjoyed many good times as well as bad times with them. depending on your choice of vitamin and calcium dusts depends on the frequency you should apply them to the feeders. also, it should be known that some species of insects are naturally high in calcium and vitamins and dusting them could overdue the amphibians dietary balance. things like earthworms, if fed while dirt is still in the guts, need not be dusted, since they are very nutritious on their own. fish and mice also need not be dusted. fish have cartliage, which is made, in part, of calcium and mice, espically those larger then fuzzy size have bones rich in calcium and don't need to be dusted, even though many people are told that they should be. most pet stores and even some "experts" still believe that rodents require dusting to be nutritious, but i have never seen anyone dusting wild mice when they are being eaten by wild reptiles and amphibians. some people will disagree with me, but i have multipule species of large reptiles and over 20 different species of amphibians, and have never lost one from not being clean or from dietary insuffiencies.

I have been dusting the live-bearing fish and monthly fuzzy...are you recommending that I not do this? 16 years is a lot of experience.
I have read a great deal about frog care..some of it does not apply. I discovered several things on my own just by observing my frogs behavior. When I first read about Mantellas, it was all about high heat and humidity. My frogs seemed stressed by this so I lowered the temps and the humidity levels. Some Mantellas come from the lowlands and enjoy temps around 68-75 degrees..not 85. Likewise, when reading about Pacman frogs, it's often stated to have their temps around 80-85 degrees. My two guys don't tolerate that and do much better at or near 75 with nighttime temps nearer 70.
I live in Minnesota, so the winters are a challange and I use under tank heaters which enable the frogs to control their own body temps. If they want heat, they sit on the pad..if not they move to a heat free space.
When I bought my last 2 Red-Eyes, they were 6 mos. old and in a tank at a reptile shop that had extremely high levels of humidity and heat. The guy that sold them to me said they had been kept like that since they were born and I should continue to house them this way.
When i tried housing them this way, the frogs seemed listless. Once I lowered the humidity and temps, the frogs became very active and began eating me out of house and home. That was a year ago, and today they are very healthy. they are housed in a 40 gallon "lizard lounge" with screen on top and both ends.
To a novice such as myself, there's a lot of information out there that is not reliable. I think the trick to healthy frogs is vigilance in their care.
What breeds of frogs do you have?

you are correct, there is a lot of info out there that is highly inaccurate and untested, just theory and guess. most of my advice either comes from my own experience or from the experience of others who i know have had great success over the years. as for people's advice on keeping pacmans in the mid 80's, i have no heat source on mine, just as flourscent light, which is mainly for the plants. i live just south of Buffalo, NY and winters suck. we keep our house heated at about 65-68 and that dosen't seem to bother the pacman or anybody else for that matter. the only two tanks i keep heat on are the mexican leaf because they are almost a desert species that like it very arid and the white's, but the heat is mainly for the crested geckos they are housed with.
To answer your question, i'm not saying that you should stop the use of calcium dust on fish and mice completely, just realize that it is not necessary for mice over a certain size (hoppers and up), though you can and should dust pinkies and fuzzies before feeding, and many times it is unnecessary to dust fish and earth/redworms. if you have had success with dusting and your animals appear healthy, then continue to do what you are doing. you may just want to consider dusting less often, every second or third feeding as opposed to every single feeding.

as for my current amphibian collection:

1.1.0 adult golden treefrogs
0.2.0 adult white's treefrogs
1.0.0 adult green treefrog
0.2.0 adult giant mexican leaf frogs
1.0.0 adult grey treefrog
0.1.0 adult flordia grassfrog
1.0.0 adult asian greenback frog
1.0.0 adult smokey jungle frog
1.0.0 adult savage's thin-toed frog
0.0.1 juv. savage's thin-toed frog
1.0.0 adult green pacman frog
2.0.0 adult pixie frogs
2.3.0 adult korean firebelly toads
0.1.0 adult european firebelly toad
1.0.0 adult korean firebelly newt
0.1.0 adult chinese firebelly newt
4.1.0 adult blotched tiger salamanders
1.1.0 adult barred tiger salamanders
0.1.1 adult eastern tiger salamanders
1.0.0 adult yellow spotted salamander
0.1.0 adult blue-spotted salamander
also about 15 bullfrogs, leapord frogs, and greenfrogs in my pond, some of which i bring in for the winter if they try to hibernate in the pond.

I also house all of my amphibians, small reptiles, and fish in naturalistic vivariums that use all organic substrates, live plants, real wood and bark, a full soil drainage system, proper lighting, and keep and feed a large variety of prey items to all of my pets. i believe that keeping a natural and clean setup and having a varied diet is key to having long lived, healthy pets.

You'd have to keep a second job just to feed all those critters.
I have seven tanks (2..40-gal lizard lounges;2..20-gal lows,1.. 30-gal, 1..10 gal with a terrarium topper and 1..5 gal) with pretty nice set-ups. All natural bark, peat moss and live plants and over-head lighting. I love "landscaping" the tanks which I clean once a month..(daily clean-up is cleaning water dishes,soiled plants and messy glass). I originally read frogs are stressed when their environment changes; but I found this to be far from the truth. My frogs seem to be rejuvinated when I rearrange their surroundings. I can't image sitting in the same environment for years.
I'm amazed you don't use heat in your tanks...especially with your climate. We had a power outage once during the winter and my tanks' temps dropped to between 60-65 degrees before I noticed. I had to wrap blankets and heating pads around the more tropical frogs.

i currently have 1-15 gal. breeder, 2-20 gal. longs, 1-30 gal. high, 1-29 gal. long, 1-35 gal. hex, 2-50 gal. breeders, 2-75 gal. tanks, and 1-150 gal tank for the tiger sals. cleaning and rearranging the tanks definatly seems to make amphibians much more active, espically the tiger sals, all of them will be out for a month after the tank is cleaned looking for food, which is up to 500 large crickets a month if they are all awake and looking to eat. they also enjoy small mice, rosie reds, mealworms, pheonix worms, slugs, flour beetles, silkwoms, earthworms, redworms, small butterflies and moths, isopods, damsilflies, and anything else that i can cathch or buy that they will eat. as for power outages, we do get them during real bad winters or when people think they know how to drive in snow. when it happens our power is usually back on within four hours of going out and we will start a fire in our wood burning fire place and or i will put the amphibians and reptiles in live shipping containers and fill my bath tub with warm water and let the water keep the containers warm and humid until the power returns. i alos let my iguana and monitors soak in a different tub to keep warm when the power goes out in the winter.

i live in minnesota too, froggie4queen. where do you buy your herps from?

Twin City Reptile, St. Paul; Petco, Maplewood and Pets Plus, Maplewood. Petco and Pets Plus give a 14-day guarantee with all animals. This is helpful as some of the frogs I buy are fairly expensive. At least I get a couple of weeks to notice any immediate problems.
I usually special order off lists from these shops' suppliers.
The owner of Twin City Reptile is planning a trip to an Expo sometime later this summer and I ask him to bring back Waxy Monkeys should there be any. I'm under to obligation to purchase if I don't like the looks of the frogs.
I'm not sure of your interests, but TC Reptiles carries a vast assortment of snakes, lizards and other creepy creatures.
I've never bought anything other than feeder insects off the internet. The shipping can kill you and you never know what you're getting. I'd rather see what I'm buying before I purchase it.

snip " things like earthworms, if fed while dirt is still in the guts, need not be dusted, since they are very nutritious on their own."endsnip

But they are still lacking in D3, A etc. This is what the dusting changes in the earthworm. And as a further point of clarification, they only have a positive calcium to phosphorus ratio if they have been kept in a calcium rich soil (which if you buy them is typically not the case) not that the level of calcium is high enough that further supplementation can cause a overdose of calcium....

snip "fish and mice also need not be dusted. fish have cartliage, which is made, in part, of calcium and mice, espically those larger then fuzzy size have bones rich in calcium and don't need to be dusted, even though many people are told that they should be. most pet stores and even some "experts" still believe that rodents require dusting to be nutritious, but i have never seen anyone dusting wild mice when they are being eaten by wild reptiles and amphibians"endsnip

This is because commercially reared mice tend to have high levels of stored vitamin A and the dusting increases the D3 in the diet preventing a form of MBD by allowing sufficient uptake of the D3 in the supplement (vitamin A, D3 and E all compete for uptake in the digestive tract).

I strongly suggest that you review the literature on herp nutrition as you have it partly right and partly wrong.

Ed

Ed, haven't we been through this many times before? i stated in this post, as with most if not all of my others, that information i provide comes from my own experience, as well as that of others who have been in the herp rearing field for many years and from extensive reading from books like Wright and Whitaker's Amphibian Medicine And Capative Husbandry among others. i have had success in keeping many individual amphibians alive for 10 years or more, including four firebelly toads, one firebelly newt, two tiger salamanders, and one mexician leaf frog which i aquired over 16 years ago and still have today. i have developed my own ways of successfully keeping healthy herps of all species in captivity. i offer advice, which people are welcome to follow if they choose, based mainly on my own experiences, most good, but some bad. it is from my mistakes in the past that i base my advice now. i am glad to see that you have such a broad knowledge about amphibian nutrition and sometimes i have been mistaken in the past and you have corrected me, though i have never given life threatening information to anyone and never purposely would. if i don't know what i am talking about or have no experience with the issue at hand, then i offer no advice. i don't mind the criticism, espically if i am off base on a topic, but you have know idea of my experiences, good or bad, or of my own personal knowledge. you choose to give information you read from a book and assume that it is correct and proven, while i choose to give information that i have personally tested and proven to be either correct or incorrect. i have seen what does and doesn't work and what is and is not true, and that is where i get my information from that i share with people when a relevant question arises.
as for your other post about when to dust and how often, did you read what i said? i gave an accurate time table as to how often dusting should occur based on how often feeding occurs, or did you miss that part of the post?
don't get me wrong ED, i'm not trying to sound annoyed, even though it my seem that way, i just believe that people who only base their info from what they have read don't have the same type of experience that those who actually test out their own and others hypothesis do. for all i know you do only use the books as guidlines and follow your own path for keeping amphibians as i do, but you sound as though you follow to a strict t that of others work and not your own.

snip "don't get me wrong ED, i'm not trying to sound annoyed, even though it my seem that way, i just believe that people who only base their info from what they have read don't have the same type of experience that those who actually test out their own and others hypothesis do. for all i know you do only use the books as guidlines and follow your own path for keeping amphibians as i do, but you sound as though you follow to a strict t that of others work and not your own"endsnip

Okay so you are questioning my credentials. Fine,

Here is a partial list of the articles that I have written that have been published as well as other references

http://www.caudata.org/cc/species/Siren/S_intermedia.shtml
http://www.caudata.org/cc/species/Ambystoma/A_tigrinum.shtml (coauthored)

Gutloading, what is it really, Reptiles Magazine
Refeeding Syndrome" - Terrapin Tales, June, 2002
Seal Salamander (Desmognathus monticola) Husbandry and Captive Maintenance, Reptiles v7.7 (7/99)
Captive Care and Maintenance of Slimy Salamanders, Reptiles v10.6 (6/02)
Keep Your Marbles, Reptiles, v9.6 (6/01)
Cynops ensicauda, The Japanese Swordtail Newt, Reptilia, No 29
Care and Maintenance in Captivity of Rio Cauca Caecilians Typhlonectes natans, Reptilia, No 17
MBD (written for the frognet.org FFAQ)http://www.tracyhicks.com/MBD.htm 2003
Speaker for IAD (International Amphibian Day) 2002, Caecilian husbandry
Speaker for International Amphibian Day 2004, Aquatic Amphibian Husbandry
Speaker for International Amphibian Day 2005, Amphibian Nutrition
Speaker for International Amphibian Day 2006 Amphibian Nutrition
Speaker for International Amphibian Day 2007 (scheduled for next year) Spindly Leg Syndrome
Cycling an Aquarium for Aquatic Animals, 2001 http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/cyclingEDK.shtml
Temperatures for newly imported newts, 2001, http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/tempEDK.shtml
Bloat in newts (also applies to anurans and caecilians), 2001, http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/bloatEDK.shtml
Euthanasia for Amphibians, 2002, http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/euthanasia
In press Spindly Leg Syndrome Swedish Dendrobatid Society

I have also been keeping and working with herps for over 25 years, have worked in the pet industry as manager in a reptile store and for a little more than the last 14 years I have been the Lead Keeper in the Philadelphia Zoo's Department of Herpetology where my main focus is working with amphibians. (we also have a full time exotic animal nutritionist on staff with whom I have held multiple consultains on amphibian nutrition).

I will also be at the Midwest Herpetological Symposium this fall speaking on caecilian husbandry.

Anecdotal observations are fine when kept in context but when compared to the documentation provided in the literature, it has to be given a grain of salt.
With respect to Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry I worked for Dr. Wright for more than 5 years when he was curator here and a lot of the nutritional information in the book was tested here and I experienced it first hand.... It should be noted that some of the nutritional information in that book is also now outdated and was incomplete to begin with (such as the omission of refeeding syndrome).

Some comments and establishing my credentials.

Ed

snip "and shouldn't feed your amphibians dusted prey items at every sitting, it can cause a build up of calcium and other vitamins in the frogs system and can cause premature death, espically in treefrogs. dusting prey is only necessary for about half of the frogs feedings, or only dust one or two items per feeding if feeding things like crickets and worms. i dust my amphibians food twice per week for those who eat 4-5 times per week, once for "endsnip

The rate of dusting depends on the frequency of feeding. If you feed two times a week or less then the food item should be dusted for each feeding. If you feed three or more times a week then the dusting can alternate. In general, the food items offered to the amphibians have a poor calcium to phosphorus ratio which makes it hard to achieve a level where it interferes with the absorbtion of other trace nutrients (however it doesn't "build" up). If oversupplemented with vitamin A, D3, E or K then there can be issues but again in general if you follow the supplementation regimen listed above you shouldn't have any issues unless your supplements are not correctly balanced or you have degraded supplements.
You can review the nutrition chapter in Mader's second edition for a more through discussion.

You seem have a great deal of knowledge, I would think your head would explode. Kidding aside..what do you think of Sandfire Superfood Tree Frog Dust which T-Rex says is safe to use at every feeding no matter how many times you feed. I called the company to verify their advertising, and they assured me it was safe. I have used it for over 4 years with very good results. All 17 of my frogs are thriving and have been for over four years.

I would need to see the ingredient list as well as the ratio of A3 in the supplement before I am willing give my opinion on it. In general, you want a ratio of calcium to phosphorus between 1 and 2 to 1 with about 1.5 being close to perfect (greater than 2:1 Ca you get hypophosphatemia which is also a problem) (If I remember correctly in general you don't want calcium to exceed 5% of the diet on a dry matter basis).

The last two years at International Amphibian Day (IAD), I presented a workshop on amphibian nutrition.

Ed

Here's the breakdown:
crude protein, min 25%
crude fat, min 1.5%
crude fiber, max 3%
Moisture, max 8%
Ash, max 8%
calcium, min 14%
calcium, max 16%
Vitamin A acetate 20,000 IU/kilo
Vitamin D-3, min 4,000 IU/kilo
The bottle states:
This food was designed by Allen Repashy (Sandfire Dragon Ranch, T-Rex Feed Formulation Specialist) to increase the nutritional value of crickets as they are fed to tree frogs. It is designed to be dusted on the insects. This combination transforms insects into a food item that has a calcium/phosphorus ratio with optimal levels. It also provides an increase in protein and a source of all natural essential vitamins, minerals and trace minerals.
There's a website as well..www.t-rexproducts.com

I haven't forgot about this, I'm looking for a piece of relevent information to make sure I am remembering something correctly so please bear with me a couple of more days.

Ed

I had to double check on the following idea as outlined on thier webpage
snip "Our approach in the diets is to use a low level of Preformed A just in case there is a synthesis issue with some species, (4 to 1 ratio), and an issue with adaptation to low levels where 10 to one could be too much.We provide lots of Beta Carotene (from Spirulina) that can be converted at will to A (in theory) Until further research is done, I believe this is the best way to make sure that a good source of A is available to the animals. "endsnip

As more and more amphibians are kept long-term it appears that at least (some) bufonids (and as time goes on other anurans may also show issues) do not readily convert beta-carotene/carotenoids to vitamin A resulting in vitamin A deficiency. This means that this maybe an insufficient level of vitamin A in the supplement which can result in hypovitaminosis A which can result in short tongue syndrome.
In the 1980s and early 1990s there were a number of problems with oversupplementation of vitamin A (as retinol) resulting in a form of "MBD" properly called nutritional secondary hyper-parathyroidism in which there was too much vitamin A (as retinol) in the diet. As retinol competes with D3 and E for absorbtion in the digestive tract ratios in excess of 10:1 of A3 can result in disruption of the calcium metabolism. This has caused a change in both the manner in which supplementation is handled as well as the formulations where beta-carotene has in most supplements totally replaced retinol as the source of vitamin A in the supplements. As a result over time, there have been more and more documentations of issues due to problems with these changes in formulation.
In addition some of these products are made to modify the ratios in a specific feeder item, which means that if you are using other types of feeders you could be over or undersupplementing the consuming animal as there are significant differences not only between the nutrient profiles of the common feeders (and significant differences in the sizes of those feeders) but in the amount of supplement retained on the different feeders. For example, fruitflies when compared to pin head crickets retain significantly more supplement when dusted. The level retained on the fly can depending on the supplement be sufficient to induce levels of toxicity (unpublished study Dr. Susan Donoghue, VMD, DACVN). The upshot of this is that at this time using a supplement made for the larger cricket sizes maybe inappropriate when dusting other food items and you may also need a different two part supplement so you can "customize" the ratios on some food items.

As a final comment, once opened all unused supplement should be discarded after about six months due to oxidation of the fat soluable vitamins. (Ideally you want to use a supplement that has a "born on date" instead of an expiration date as you don't know if it has been kept too warm etc..)

Ed

Here's a pic of Vern who's 1 1/2 yrs.
In layman terms, is this supplement going to be a problem if I continue its use? Would I have seen any health issues by this time since I've used it for over 4 yrs.?
All 17 of my frogs appear to be in excellent condition, and I do watch the length of time a bottle is open. With as many frogs as I have, it doesn't last too long.
Petsmart has discontinued carrying this line. I was able to buy the last 5 bottles for $1 @..usually they are over $5.
Hopefully, there will be no future problems due to my purchase.
Thanks for the research...tho it was a little beyond my pea-brain's comprehension.

snip " In layman terms, is this supplement going to be a problem if I continue its use? Would I have seen any health issues by this time since I've used it for over 4 yrs.? "endsnip

Possibly if you are using it to adjust the nutritional levels in feeders other than crickets. Not having seen an issue doesn't really mean anything without a vet work up (which is expensive) as there should be at least one x-ray to check for bone density.

snip "All 17 of my frogs appear to be in excellent condition, and I do watch the length of time a bottle is open. With as many frogs as I have, it doesn't last too long. "endsnip

Six months is pretty much when it should be discarded.

snip "Petsmart has discontinued carrying this line. I was able to buy the last 5 bottles for $1 @..usually they are over $5.
Hopefully, there will be no future problems due to my purchase."endsnip

These products do not have a long shelf-life as they start causing thier own breakdown as soon as they are mixed together. The rate of this breakdown increases as soon as the container is opened which is why once you open a new container (provided it hasn't been sitting on the shelf for a long period of time) it should be discarded after six months. If you have unopened jars sitting around that are older than six months then they should probably be discarded.

This is the supplement that is used in many Zoos
http://www.rocksolidherpetoculture.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage1a&Itemid=27&category_id=14&product_id=250

Ed

Thanks for the research...tho it was a little beyond my pea-brain's comprehension"endsnip