Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Craig Sheppard here, developer of the Phoenix Worm. I joined kingsnake.com in order to be able to respond to a recent post by Ric K. in this forum.

Re "...tedious to pick out walnut shell like bedding...had to rinse off"--Do not rinse the media off Phoenix Worms. Place the worms in a shallow dish and let them dry for a few minutes. The media will usually fall off the worms or you can easily blow it off before serving to your animals. Moisture on the worms or in the dish will enable Phoenix Worms to climb so that should be avoided.

Re "...no producers of Phoenix Worms will give information out as to how to culture them"--This statement is puzzling. Insect Science Resource (our company) is the sole producer of Phoenix Worms and Ric K. has not asked us about this. Other vendors or distributors may be presenting themselves as producers. We hold most aspects of the rearing procedures as proprietary, however, we can say that space requirements make this impractical for the hobbyist.

Re "...the calcium rating on Phoenix Worms is a bit misleading as they are somewhat dehydrated..."--Calcium content for Phoenix Worms is given for the fully hydrated live insect (65% water, 35% dry matter). Calcium (and any other mineral) content must be determined in the lab from fully dried material. As the material is dried, the moisture content is determined and then the mineral concentration is determined from the dried test material. Once this concentration is determined, it is multiplied by 35% (dry matter) to reflect the true concentration in fully hydrated live insect larvae. All of our nutrition claims are based on independent lab analyses. Copies of these reports are available to anyone upon request.

On a live basis, Phoenix Worms have about 8,000ppm calcium for all sizes; slightly more for the two larger sizes and slightly less for the two smaller sizes, the difference being about 8%. The larvae are not encrusted with calcium but seem to have the calcium held within undefined tissues. Prepupae (not Phoenix Worms) have an even higher calcium content and it is concentrated in the insect's outer skin. Perhaps this fact is what led to Ric's erroneous generalization.

We are the only producers of Phoenix Worms in the world and I can assure you that we do not ship out dehydrated larvae. Shipping losses would increase, shelf life would be much reduced, and the larvae would be lethargic and near death by the time hobbyists bought them. In fact, directions to keep the worms hydrated are clearly printed on each cup.

Phoenix Worms were in development for over five years. We brought them to market at the request of breeders and hobbyists who believed they would be an excellent addition to the diet of many herps. Jon Coote, Chairman of the International Herpetological Society, made the following statements published in Pet Business magazine: "It is perhaps the extra-small size that will provide this worm's greatest opportunity. It appears to be the perfect size for small amphibians, including poison dart frogs. Couple this with its naturally high calcium content, and it seems tailor-made for use in moist environments where traditional calcium dusting techniques may be less effective. I can also see it playing an important role in the raising of some baby turtle species that initially demand live insects to stimulate their appetites. Getting sufficient calcium into these babies can otherwise be problematical."

We hope that you will find the above information helpful as you evaluate this new feeder insect.
-----
Craig Sheppard, Ph.D.
President, Insect Science Resource
Professor Emeritus, UGA
www.phoenixworm.com

Dr. Sheppard,

Thank you for signing on to this forum. I appreciate the fact that you've always been accessible to the herpetological hobby community.

Unfortunately, your confession that you are unwilling to provide any information with regard to the culture of Phoenix worms leads to me a decision. I will no longer purchase Phoenix worms. I'm just one hobbyist who will no longer contribute to your proprietorship. They are simply too expensive, and now I am aware of the reason. You could make money off of me in the purchase of starter cultures and when or if it becomes impractical for me to raise my own Phoenix worms. Your business choice has eliminated at least one customer. I apologize for my frankness, but I took your statement as a smack in the face of the average hobbyist like myself. I do appreciate your honesty.

Well, I can't exactly blame Dr. Sheppard for not giving out the information...thats business.

But I will say, that if culturing isn't an option, the price needs to come down significantly, at least for larger quantities.

I would hope prices, at some point would be comparable to buying 1000 or more mealworms.

My first order took almost three weeks to get here and most were dead(order was placed in late July). I did get a replacement order, and it arrived in just under a week.

More are alive, but there are still more dead than I would like.
Then again, how do you tell if they're dead?

Twice I have opened up my container to see what appears to be a worm wriggling out of one of those dried up dead ones.

Can you tell us more about their life cycle?
Do they molt?

Thanks for any info!

PS: I had a two week old hatchling eat two small phoenix worms last night, his first meal. His other siblings weren't ready to consider eating yet, but the one seemed to deal with the phoenix worms with no problems!

Thank you for sharing this information, Dr. Sheppard.

While I do not currently purchase any live worms to feed to the box turtle hatchlings I headstart, it is good to know the particulars about the various options available to me, should I find it necessary to buy something to supplement what I have here.

It is also helpful to have input from other hobbyists and keepers as to the ease and practicality of use of various products, which can then aid in our making an informed decision about what to buy.

Thank you again.

Stephanie

All opinions are valued and opinions that are not tied to profiting money carry more weight with me.

You tried to defend the statement that they are not tedious to pick out; but in doing so have convinced me that they are more tedious than previously has been posted! First I have to place the worms in a shallow dish and watch them dry. Then I HAVE TO BLOW THE MEDIUM OFF! Well after huffing and puffing how do I control how much I blow off ? Does the medium just scatter all over my rep room? If I have too many maggots after blowing; what medium do I now put them in as I've blown it all over the floor???

You stated that Ric did not ask you how to culture phoenix worms; in fact stating, "This statement is puzzling" but two sentences later state that it would be impractical to culture for the hobbyist. In defending yourself you; you offered no information as to the culturing of phoenix worms.....Exactly what Ric stated. He was told." No information." This does not support your defense here. Ok maybe you want to protect your money making deal here and not give your secret away --- fine; but let's not shoot arrows as they're circling back at the archer. I would never continue to buy a feeder that I could never culture myself.

In your defense regarding calcium ratings---you have a vested interest in promoting this product... You state there are independent lab analyses. Who paid the company to find the high calcium values? For what purpose or reason would someone who has posted so thoroughly with no monetary gain suddenly post otherwise? Incidentally since you offered; I am requesting a copy of YOUR lab analyses.

You continue to defend statements such as "WE DO NOT SHIP DEHYDRATED LARVE" yet three posts including Ric's have stated just the opposite..... and none of them profit from posts here. With my personal experience; I had to have them shipped twice due to DEHYDRATED DEAD LARVE. That's FOUR POSTS stating that in in real life, they are shipped contrary to your your claims.

Sir you state in your second paragraph, " Moisture on the worms or in the dish will enable Phoenix worms to climb so that should be avoided." Then in your sixth paragraph state " directions to keep worms hydrated are clearly printed on each cup." ??? From my experience wether dry or moist; these feeders will climb and do so very well right out of my ceramic feeder dish and into the substrate. This is a false claim.

Due to their high cost; I am also limited in using phoenix maggots. But
sir PHD I have trouble with purchasing from someone who slings mud in circles, when they're obviously all covered in it.

Pertri G.

I welcome all opinions and replies to posts that I've made.

I stand by my post that was a reply to herp users asking for information from breeders of box turtles specifically on Phoenix Worms. It is ironic that a reply was so prompt; since the phoenix worms I ordered took several weeks to be shipped. Regarding your puzzled query; I inquired at information@phoenixworm.com as to husbandry and culturing Phoenix Worms. I was informed it was impractical for hobbyists to culture and inexpensive enough to purchase more when needed. I contacted three other suppliers of phoenix worms and received similar replies. No information was given from suppliers or producers on culturing them.

I maintain that using them for box turtles is very tedious. They may be more appropriate with small amphibians that consume very few feeders. Box turtles have consumed many more types of live food in the tens of thousands of years that they existed on this planet. They did so without domestic Phoenix Worms which have existed for a few years; yet their shells and calcium levels were perfect. It is my opinion that they are not a natural feed or necessity for box turtles; but rather a luxury item benefiting a handful of commercial businesses as opposed to being an answer to a need.

My phoenix worms arrived very dry; some dead. While I did get some of my hatchlings to consume them; many of them preferred small earthworms to phoenix worms. Also, with my hatchlings that were fed a strong diet of phoenix worms as opposed to Boxie Hatchlings fed a varied diet with D3 enriched calcium; there was no weight gain, no improved shell hardness, no difference in hatchling growth, or observable advantage with those fed almost exclusively on phoenix worms. If phoenix worms are so rich in calcium; one would expect some measurable differences. Consequently, with D3 and calcium being so convenient and inexpensive; any feeder can be made calcium rich.

I maintain, that the cost, the tedious time required for feeding, the inability to start my own colony, the inaccurate hype of calcium, and other more efficient means of starting boxies are my reasons for opting to advise with reservations, using "phoenix worms".

Respectfully,

Ric K.

"Box turtles have consumed many more types of live food in the tens of thousands of years that they existed on this planet. They did so without domestic Phoenix Worms which have existed for a few years; yet their shells and calcium levels were perfect."

An important point for every box turtle keeper to bear in mind.

As keepers, we should all be striving to provide our turtles with a varied diet and to ask questions about the commercially available products that are being touted as nutritionally superior or complete box turtle foods; and to share our experiences with other keepers. Most people here are concerned about the health and well being of their turtles, and deserve to know what their getting should they order something online.

I for one appreciate the exchange of information that occurs on this forum: over time I have certainly learned alot. Sometimes in ways not intended by the posters.

As far as ordering any live foods go, I think I'll continue with my current policy, which is to not bother. Keeping leaf piles, rotting logs and other cover in my turtle enclosures provides me with a steady supply of worms, snails, slugs, crickets, pill bugs, various larvae, beetles and other creepy-crawlies, not to mention some interesting fungi, that seem to be keeping my hatchlings well fed and growing normally.

I realize that this is not practical for some others of you, but I would encourage those of you who can to give it a try instead of shelling out (sorry, bad pun) money for food that you can produce yourselves, instead of trying to rely on the vagaries of availability, shipping related problems, rehydration, etc..

Stephanie

While I did get some of my hatchlings to consume them; many of them preferred small earthworms to phoenix worms.

What kind of small earthworms are you using? Do you buy
them or do you find them?

Its been harder to find enough insects this summer since
we are in a pretty nasty drought.

I've given up on the yard, but I have a couple of gardens
I water pretty heavily, hoping that the rolipolis, etc., can
survive.

My challenge is finding a good food source for hatchlings.
I used to order redworms, but some didn't like them and
many young hatchlings were intimidated by their "wriggling".
Plus, you have the substrate adherence problem.

I rely heavily on mealworms for young ones, but there are days
when I can't find enough molted ones.

Do we really know if its a bad thing to feed them mealworms that
arent' molted? I see similar bugs in the wild and I somehow doubt that a wild baby boxie is going to turn up its nose because its not molted.

Anyway, I'm looking for more ideas regarding hatchlings.

"While I did get some of my hatchlings to consume them; many of them preferred small earthworms to phoenix worms." ??

What kind of small earthworms are you using? Do you buy ?them or do you find them? ??Do we really know if its a bad thing to feed them mealworms that aren't' molted? I see similar bugs in the wild and I somehow doubt that a wild baby boxie is going to turn up its nose because its not molted. ??Anyway, I'm looking for more ideas regarding hatchlings.

Lisa,
I collect two types of feeder worms for my boxies from my garden. I never buy them. I collect nightcrawlers (terrestris lumbricus), and another type that I'm not sure of the genus since there are many kinds of earthworms. I add dried grass clippings and leaves to one end of my garden. Turn it under every couple of weeks, and keep the area damp. I collect the nightcrawlers with a red lens flashlight ( less likely to startle them) after dark. Then cut them up into 1/2 inch pieces, add calcium ( sometimes with D3) and my boxies just love them. I also harvest smaller garden / earthworms which I dig up during the day found just four to ten inches below the surface. They vary in color from red brown to gray brown and are four to five inches long. I can collect dozens in ten minutes. I cut them up into small 1/8 inch pieces for my hatchlings add vitamins on occasion and put them in a small shallow dish. They are gobbled up in five minutes. When first starting my hatchlings I do not add vitamins; but just put the small worms in a shallow dish of 82- 86 degree water. Being cut up they wiggle very slowly; so they do not intimidate the first time eaters. Also I cover all the sides of the feeding area with newspaper to prevent the new hatchlings from seeing out as they are easily panicked.

After a week I start feeding my hatchlings pinhead crickets; first plain then when they are feeding regularly; pinheads dusted with D3 calcium. As they get larger, I'll alternate with white newborn hissers, pillbugs, crickets, worms, chopped up dark green leaves of romaine, shredded dandelion leaves, mealworms (enriched with wheat germ and fish food flakes). I do try and feed mealworms that have shredded with very young hatchlings as too often the high percentage of chitin in mealworms will cause a blockage in their small digestive system. They are very delicate at this newborn stage. In the wild they would have lots of variety with many types of small soft tent caterpillars, inch worms, earthworms, tiny centipedes, and slugs. As they get older; they don't need molted ones.... but not a steady diet of mealworms.... Variety is the key.

There are some dried prepared foods that my boxies really seem to like. I use them, very infrequently, only when I'm in a hurry; but prefer natural foods. I moisten/ soak all the dry foods with very warm water. But I like to have variety even with dry foods that I can alternate.

My boxies readily take to the following dry foods. Rep- Cal Pellets for Box Turtles( smells very fruity), Mazuri Water Turtle Diet, Reptomin, and Nutrafin Gammarous Diet for Turtles with D3, (a type of fresh water shrimp). Newborn/ hatchlings also like Hikari Freeze Dried Bloodworms served up in a shallow dish of water. They are also offered frozen in cubes as a Tropical fish food. Sorry this is so long... There are many more options but here's a start.

Have Fun!

Ric

Ric,
I thought you might find this link interesting. It seems that not only will phoenix worms save our hobby from its near extinction, but it will also save us all from being knee deep in manure.

http://www.virtualcentre.org/en/enl/vol1n2/article/ibs_conf.pdf#search='soldier%20fly%20pig'

page 9 is particularly interesting, it states that the adults need a "walk-in" type cage to mate. I guess we haven't been giving them enough room.

I have been able to successfully obtain soldier fly larvae from my friend's stock by simply placing a large tub of fresh rodent manure outside with some of his larvae within. The adults will stay nearby and continue to reproduce in the tub as long as I keep providing fresh manure. At least I'll have them in the summer. Also, they're much larger than those purchased.

Most of my hatchlings will eat them, but they are tedious to deal with, expensive, and it takes too many to satisfy even the smallest hatchling's hunger. Also, I've noticed that they will often defecate what appears to be an intact larvae. This makes me wonder about their digestibility.

Let's keep in mind...all of the calcium in the world won't help our INDOOR hatchlings unless we supplement their diets with Vitamin D3. Even with our sophisticated artificial lighting, D3 is CRITICAL. The calcium content of a larvae could be 8 million ppm, but it would just pass right on through without D3.

Good catch!
I found this paper....

72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:WvfTQdj7MCAJ:www.lgp.qld.gov.au/docs/local_govt/grants_subsidies/funding/awtt/1003_awttfinalreport.pdf+Hermetia+illucens+grain&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=24

Which gives alot of detail on culturing soldier flies.
I believe it mentions chicken pellets as a food source for the larvae and I think the paper you linked to also mentioned a pelleted food source (see page 2). I interpreted that to mean that the larvae was fed the pellets not the bullfrogs, but I might have misinterpreted. I haven't read either in detail yet, but looks like good info!

Ooops, Ken, this was supposed to be a reply to your
other post, where you had the paper by the phoenix worm guy.

Great detective work!

I could never see myself knee deep in manure...

Ahem...Maybe... deeper in Alligators?

Ric