Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Has anyone ever
Or
Is anyone willing
to take a "pure" Eastern Kingsnake (Lampropeltis getula getula)
and cross it with a "pure" Florida Kingsnake (L. g. floridana) until they produce recognizable "goini"?
I am currently unable to keep either but am mystified as to how they can disclaim both goini and the "Suwanee King" as intergrades but they can't seem to be recreated by interbreeding.
Any help with this will be greatly appreciated.
For what it's worth, I retire from the Navy in November and as soon as I can get my educational permit, I will start this experiment myself. I will run it as long as I am able or until someone learns/proves that the DNA results that "prove" the current subspecies is not the end-all truth.
Karl H. Betz
(a believer in goini)

Ga. local kings. alot of Ga. getula show influence from both ssp.,but to answer your question ,yes, its been done ALOT and this is why goini is so suspect as its own sub.,,,,,,thomas

I do understand what you are saying Thomas.
But my point is that those kings, being Georgia locality, may have already been crossbred at some time in the past with a goini and had some gene traits buried.
Just a thought.
Karl

I agree genetics very well could have flowed up but whats odd is its only affected pattern as these snakes dont get any interband lightening like Goini do. They are more like the Mosaics of Edisto, SC in that pattern is affected only no ontogenetic change. The original WC animals are from Echols and Tift Co so they are in the melting pot for sure. I dont agree with Thomas that there is any Floridana influence I just dont see anything. I would expect with Floridana influence they would have higher number of crossbars that are thinner but its not the case. I think you are also right in that you wont get a Goini looking King from Flordana X Eastern no matter what ya do. Maybe Goini is the original pattern that hit the area and all evolved from them ? Look forward to your breedinf attempts Karl.

Karl have you ever seen anymore Eastern like that Camden Co. animal you have pictured on my site ? Thats such a cool looking snake. Is that what they generally what they look like there ? Well Im with you Karl I believe in Goini (Meansi) I think all these guys who think they are simply Floridana X Eastern are way off.

Here are 2 f1's from Darien Co. parents that have that same look as that Camden you found. Zee has one of these. I got him originally from a guy In Canada. Seems odd to get a Georgia Eastern King from the great north lol.

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It also does not work that way. Breeding any eastern or any Fla. will not prove or show evidence of much.

The question is more about the melting of the easterns and flas, that exsisted in that area before the goini pattern survived and became established.

Also, you must question why you think its so important for Any pattern morph to have a species name. The reality is much stronger then scientific names. Goini are goini and exsist as goini, no matter what science calls them. Simply put, that area has a lot of pattern variation, no matter what science calls them. Its still just as interesting. They are still there. You must understand, scientific names are suppose to be useful. Lately they are losing that attribute. For instance, instead of taking away subspecies(the common trend) They should add locality morphs. Something like this. L.g.g.(goini morph) L.g.flor. (homestead morph) You know, a tag to help you understand what your looking at. After all, isn't that what SN is suppose to do? Science does that with many other plants and animals. Just not something so useful as with our reptiles.

There is no question that goini and others like the south georgia kings mentioned, are of the eastern king build, size, etc. Its only a slightly different pattern that survives. You do understand, that in the area they occur, there are many natural occuring patterns. From eastern kingish, to Fla-ish, to patternless and striped to every combination of the above. The simple reality is, there is no one goini. Theres an area with mixed patterns. (hence intergrade)

A better question is why wasn't the patternless morph or striped morph, named as goini? Why the blotched pattern?

Just some food for thought, cheers

.

Hey Jetzen, I see that you are often a big believer in FR's philosophy. I gotta say that sometimes I agree with him and sometimes I don't. He often encourages thinking outside of the box, that's for sure.

I wonder how you feel about his opinions on husbandry seeing that it seems to conflict with the way you keep your snakes? He has been critical of warehousing snakes in plastic tubs and has encourages elaborate natural set-ups. He also has been critical of not breeding female snakes, stating that is more stressful for them to re-absorb ovum than to lay eggs.

Not saying that you agree with everything he says. Like me, you probably agree with some and leave the rest. Everyone has the right to an opinion.Just curious.

I agree with Frank's ability to liven up the forum. Sometimes he's a little tough on the numskulls but it's all good anyway.
Anyway, have you checked out Frank's costco racks? they're awesome.

Nice one Jet. Yes, I sometimes see inconsistency in his posts. One time criticizing plastic tubs and racks, other times showing off his cool Costco rack! I'm sure he has an explanation why the Costco rack is good for hatchlings, but not OK for adults.

I personally keep most of my snakes in a rack system. I wish I had the space to construct real elaborate natural set-ups, but I feel that I give my animals good care. I'd love to see some of FR's set-ups. I've just seen his nesting boxes.

Anyway his posts are often thought provoking, and it's nice that he, you, and I have the right to our opinions, and nobody is really right or wrong. Keeping herps is definitely an in-exact science. I respect his many years of experience, your years of experience with a really large collection, and I also respect those who are doing scientific research. Even if they dont have the years of experience keeping herps and finding them in wild like FR does, they do have access to information, tools, and techniques that hobbyists do not.

I wonder why you have to say, you agree with this and not that and such and such.

I think you should think about what I say. Not agree with it. Thats all. Later at some date, if something I have said is useful, then use it. If it works for you, then you can agree with it.

You see, its odd that you have to agree or disagree. What makes you do that? I often wonder what grounds you have to agree or disagree? Do you feel like you should agree with all things you read?

This really confuses me. Cheers

I definitely don't agree with everything I read, or everything I'm told. I'm usually quite a skeptic. I don't consider anyone to be the be all/end all authority on anything, especially me.

Like I said, I consider your posts to be very thought provoking (that's a compliment). I do think about your posts. I take what I want from them and leave the rest, just like you suggest. I'm not really interested in debating the issues I don't agree with, because I feel it is pointless. The arguments and insults that go on here are usually a result of people not being able to accept opinions that are different from their own. I respect your right to have opinions that differ from mine. Do you respect the right of others to have different opinions from yours? Why do you feel it necessary to challenge my right to disagree with you? Are you going to tell me I don't have enough experience to disagree with you?

You have been enough of an influence on this forum to become a fair topic of discussion. Normally I ignore posts that I don't agree with without comment. I take it you would prefer I do that with yours. I do most of the time. I was interested in Jetzen's opinions on some of your ideas, and I asked him.

Like I said, I respect your many years experience. I respect others for their formal education, others just because they seem to be intelligent people. I don't think anyone knows it all. We all have a lot to learn. Have you learned anything here from others? Have you heard interesting ideas from those of us here that may be younger (I'm 42) or less experienced than you? I hope you have. As a teacher, I can say that I have learned loads from my students even though I am much older and experienced than them. I tell my students to question authority. You are sort of an authority here. You ask us to think outside of the box, sometimes that means disagreeing with the teacher.

that's a very nice pyro, i assume it's a w.c., how well do w.c. pyro adjust to captivity? i am very curious about this. thanks in advance.

I didn't collect that one, just took it's pic. Hamburg Meadow area of the Huachuca Mtns.

I have collected 3 pyros, and photographed many more. Two of the w/c's started feeding immediatly on f/t mice, one was always a problem feeder (I gave him to a friend in Atlanta). One of the two w/c's I keep hates to be handled and thrashes and musks when picked up. The other is mellow.

The two I keep are Santa Rita locale. Here is a pic of one of them (the mellow one).

I got rid of my pyros yesterday then i found out they were both males, i did'nt want to spend the money on a adult female anyway.
Do yours go on long term hunger strikes?

Oh yeah. My pyros stop feeding in September and don't start feeding again until February. Very little weight loss though. Mine are both females from the same canyon. I was working on trying to find a locality male for them, but moved to Oregon before I could find one. I may buy a male now.

Here's another wild one I only photographed. Catalina Mtns.

Arizona is the rattlers and monsters, pyros are cool too. I hav'nt been ther for yrs tho. One a these days i'm gonna take my ol' lady and show her the canyon.

The Goini deserves recognition due to the simple fact that there exists a patternless type. I think that is what Means was trying to establish. I think it was redundant and the name “Goini” should remain. You can breed Easterns and Brooks or Florida a thousand times and you will never produce a typical patternless “Goini”. You will, however, produce those wide-banded Georgia types. The patternless gene is probably now only a relic of something that is basically extinct. It is still carried by females in the region and shows up in some males. I believe all existing populations would have to be considered intergrades because breeding two patternless does not produce all patternless. I believe we will recreate a true breeding patternless by outcrossing and selective breeding, but basically, the form deserving special naming is on the very verge of non-existance.

I guess I agree with FR's philosophy that scientific and common names are an artificial thing we use to describe what we see in the wild. Taxonomy is not the exact science we want it to be. I think DNA and phylogenetics will start to clear the picture up soon. Right now it really seems to be a matter of opinion (some people's opinions are much more educated than others) whether a certain pattern/color morph exists in relative isolation (a sub?) or is an intergrade bewteen two other subs.

Have people read about Blaney's (1977) theory that getula should be split into three clusters (=species)? He suggests that there should be L. californiae (no subspecies), L. splendida (composed of the subpecies holbrooki, nigra, and splendida ) and L. getula (composed of the subspecies floridana and getula ). He goes on to say that there is very little hybridization between his 3 species, not enough to be significant.

Molecular biology is still a relatively new science and it will be hard to replace a taxonomic system that has been in place since the 1700's, but I think it is the wave of the future as far as scientific names go. Look for big changes soon.