Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok I dont know anything about monitors, Im more into boas but ive had a question thats been bothering me. I was just curious if CB komodos have the bacteria in their mouths too or is that only when they live in the wild and eating what they eat naturally ( like carrion? ). Just curious as I know dart frogs are posionous in the wild b/c of what they eat, but not if they are CB and eat fruit flies.thanks in advance

I always wondered that too. When I see specials on tv they always have that slimy drool dripping off of their mouths, but when they are in a zoo they look like regular monitors.

Yes, KD's (captive bred) have some of the bacteria, but not nearly as much as their wild counterparts.

are these bacteria's found in captive komodo's mouths different, or more abundant than in other monitors? or would you say the bacteria levels are in proportion with other monitors?

shay

KD's seem to have more, but I'm sure some other species have pretty high amounts too. KD's just have especially virulent ones.

I've befriended a teacher in the SouthWest Herp Society.. and yearly, when he still had his Sav (now mine) in the classroom, he'd ask questions of his class, using a few dishes and jelly and a couple swabs, they'd try to find out where and what in the classroom would yield as high amount of bacteria as that found in the mouths of Komodos... Now after a few years, one of the students finally got around to pointing out the Savannah and as the teacher hadn't tried it yet, taking a swab and attempting to grow a culture from the bacteria in the mouth.. it practically blossomed overnight..

Which led him and myself to believe it's likely to be found in most varanid species and likely several other lizards...
I think I heard the Komodo's is caused by open sores in the mouth, cuts from their own teeth.. that may or may not be true.. I'm not a huge researcher of V. Komodoensis

Such problems wouldn't often be found in the mouths of the average Ackie or Black throat for instance.. But the bacteria is surely still there.. what it's use is.. I wouldn't say.. The Komodos seem to be able to use it as a pseudo venom of sorts... killing the prey over time, marking it fairly distinctly in scent, and perhaps breaking down tissue (though considering it'd only be one or two major bites at first, I don't see a practical application for larger prey)
The rest of their Varanid kin haven't quite gotten to that point where they need to develop that slobber.. and the ones in zoos don't need it in considering they get their prey delivered..

*shrug* I dunno, just speculating...
The Komodo's bacteria surely has a use, especially in the wild on those islands, so would it not make sense to produce copious amounts to dig into any open wound from bites to scratches (I don't see a whole lot of scratches on prey, but with Komodos being huge, I'm sure accidents happen while trying to pin it)

I know I'm rambling, but it's 4:21 AM, I need to sleep badly, but I enjoy thinking So I thought, and now I'm thought out.. night night.
-----
2.3 Leos
2.0 Beardie
1.1 Common Boa
0.1 Sav (Bosc) Monitor
1.1 Ackies
0.1 Giant BW Tegu
Thousands of Roaches, T's, and Scorps.
Wish for: Candoia Sp, Frilled D

In the Varanid genus.. if the same bacteria present in Komodoensis which debilitates the prey (Or maybe it's a veritable bacteria cocktail, who knows) is present in the other species?

To find that out.. would be particularly interesting..
I need a microscope.. I wonder if this would be a good excuse to buy one.. I have several varanids and teids at hand.. no komodos.. but it would be fun to see any similarities.
-----
2.3 Leos
2.0 Beardie
1.1 Common Boa
0.1 Sav (Bosc) Monitor
1.1 Ackies
0.1 Giant BW Tegu
Thousands of Roaches, T's, and Scorps.
Wish for: Candoia Sp, Frilled D

First you should consider the difference between a healthy monitor and an unhealthy monitor.

Then you should consider, the natural qualities of a varanid mouth. In the last couple of years, its come to lite that varanids and many other, normally considered harmless reptiles, such as kingsnakes and such, have toxins/venoms. This saliva contains such things as crotamines(named after rattlesnake venom) But of course at much lover levels and most likely not as toxic.

Of course all mouths contain bacteria. In most cases, this flora or fauna(which is it?), is considered normal and if of actual value. In many cases its important in digestion.

So the question becomes what is normal and what is not normal.

In the case of reptiles(snakes), its known from the past that poor husbandry causes such things as mouth rot(bacterial infections in the mouth) These infections are normally caused by "common" bacteria. What seems to allow this common bacteria to become deleterious, is a compromised immune system. Prolonged stress, causes reptiles to lose a functioning immune system.

To the point, I wonder what is the range of bacteria in a Komodos mouth based on overall health. As far as I know, most of the cultures were done on captive KD's or on wild ones in a park situation. These were fed goats and were attacted to food and often overabundant. I wonder if those were actually healthy monitors? Please understand, I am not saying healthy KD's do not contain more harmful bacteria then other monitors. I just wonder if the tests were actually varied. In lite on this new information that varanids carry actual venom, a KD may well be able to down its prey with venom, and not bacteria, as previously thought.

Keep in mind, many of these things we are taught about monitors occur from a very small amount of information. In many cases, one test, or in this case one/a few, cultures. The question is, was that a sick KD's or a healthy ones? For instance, what is the flora of a fast growing neonate KD? It would be of interest to test both a wild neonate and captive ones. Ones of known health. Those results would be interesting.

The reason I ask this is, in my own experience with indo monitors. You can control the bacteria in the mouth with simple husbandry. For instance, bleeding gums is common on unhealthy indo monitors. This bleeding gums was and my still be thought to be normal.

In fact, the person your talking to, told me it was normal. He visited me and I showed him a pair of indicus that had bleeding gums. To make the story short, they eventually died from that. So whenever I kept indo monitors from that point on, If I saw bleeding gums, I checked my husbandry and made improvements. Then the bleeding would simply go away. Its was my experience it was caused by stress, much like mouthrot in snakes. This stress is from both improper conditions and unsuitable social arrangements. Once those areas were addressed, the bleeding gums disappeared and a normal bacterial flora returned to their mouths.

I also noted that wild indo monitors such as Blacktrees had very high bacteria loads in their mouths and claws. A tiny puncture or bite would cause a very fast infection. But once they were in captivity a short time, and became healthy, this went completely away. To a point of bites and claw scratches did not cause any infection. This is not the same exact individuals.

I wonder about KD's. Remember, I do not care what the answer is, as it does not matter one way or the other, I just get a nagging feeling this overabundance of oral bacteria is caused by stress. Their actual venom is by design. Cheers

thanks!

I haven't kept any indo monitors, only observed in Captivity and for the time I lived in that Region, in the wild.. of course, that was limited to V. Salvator wandering the beach, presumably in search of prey or merely making it's rounds.

Crotamines?
So it may not be just the work of the bacteria, but true venom?
Is it developed and potent, especially so in the KD's?
But may exist in several hundred other reptiles?

I don't mean to sound so boyish about it, but that's real nifty!
I've got to do some research on that..

Many thanks
-----
2.3 Leos
2.0 Beardie
1.1 Common Boa
0.1 Sav (Bosc) Monitor
1.1 Ackies
0.1 Giant BW Tegu
Thousands of Roaches, T's, and Scorps.
Wish for: Candoia Sp, Frilled D

This vemon stuff was posted here by the Researcher. He often lurks here. So you can check the archives or hope he adds to this.

According to him, its proven. Of course us old keepers already knew this. If your biten by a kingsnake and recieve a few pin holes, it will bleed profusely compared to sticking yourself with a pin. Same with monitor bites, it hurts and bleeds far more then a comparable wound.

There is a little tiny monitor in Australia called Kings pygmy monitor,(V.kingorum) they are very very little(smallist head in the varanid world) When they bite you, it knocks your dingler in the dirt. I mean they pack a whallop. Stings like crazy and bleeds profusely. Yet, they have no power and are tiny. Hmmmmmmmm

Let me find a pic of such an event. Cheers

Thats very interesting. I havent had very many experiences with getting bitten (kinda glad of it). But when I remember, it does bleed longer. Havent had a monitor pierce my skin yet.... and I dont think I want one to. hahaha.

cheers,
Sean

hey Frank, just curious. what were the husbandry changes you made that caused the bleeding gums to go away?
-----
-Marshall
1.1.0 ball pythons
0.0.1 red ackie