Reptile & Amphibian Forums

these guys should turn out solid yellow like their parents. These guys are cool as hell! Thanks. Mike Panichi

also pretty nice looking

I hope they all turn out like this guy. Thanks for looking. Mike Panic

I really like the colors and the stripes.Nice snake Mike!

That is a fabulous looking snake. Since you didn't really say, may I ask if he's pure Obsoleta?

I'm not bent on damning people for hybrids/intergrades but I do hate when they misrepresent an animal!! It is gorgeous!!

there was an original striped yellow rat bred into them 2 decades ago. They are hybrids or intergrades but the group I have are siblings from ones which were purchased in 1992 from Glades. They have never been bred into anything other than there own line. Im sorry about misrepresenting them but they are what I called them, albino patternless ratsnakes. Thanks. Mike P There is a thread on the corn forum about them, and you can read Kathy loves description of how they came to be. Thanks. Mike Panichi
-----
honesty is my only policy

I'm sure you wouldn't misrepresent your animals but I am curious about their lines. You didn't mention that in the posts.

I just spotted your reference to the Corn Snake Forum and read the string. It's a mix of subspecies but a beautiful animal. Enjoy it, it's fabulous.

misrepresentation anywhere Mike. They are a beautiful albino patternless ratsnake. They were produced originally by breeding a unique stripped pattern juvenile yellow ratsnake to a bubblegum. You can call it an integrade or whatever, but a bubblegum ratsnake is an accepted cross breeding of a everglades and blackratsnake as is a creamsicle corn. There are a few cross breedings that have whethered the course of time so to speak. Beautiful snake Mike. Great project that Kathy Love started and great work keeping it going. Good luck

>>there was an original striped yellow rat bred into them 2 decades ago. They are hybrids or intergrades but the group I have are siblings from ones which were purchased in 1992 from Glades. They have never been bred into anything other than there own line. Im sorry about misrepresenting them but they are what I called them, albino patternless ratsnakes. Thanks. Mike P There is a thread on the corn forum about them, and you can read Kathy loves description of how they came to be. Thanks. Mike Panichi
>>-----
>>honesty is my only policy

they were crossed years and years ago and they kind of are a lost line so to speak. My friend has had them in his coolection since 1992 and was geting tired of them so I took the project over from him and was lucky enough to get three solid clutches. I must admit, I didnt know what to expect from the hatchlings but they seem pretty nice. Thanks again for the support. Mike Panichi
-----
honesty is my only policy

Mike I apologize if you took it that way.

I got what you said after I answered that first post. That was a nice compliment actually, and I appreciate it. Thanks alot. Mike Panichi.
-----
honesty is my only policy

snakes as a general statement. I was stating my view of Mike Panic's posts and stating some supporting views of mine. The word "misrepresentation" in the reptile market or any business/hobby for that matter, can tear down a business, people, and the reptiles themselves more than any other word just about. I apologize, I just have to jump in or say something when I read or hear it. Thanks for making your post and concern that I don't take your post wrong.

>>Mike I apologize if you took it that way.

Sorry to keep posting but he really is amazing. I'm fascinated by that slow blend from yellow to orange. Just awesome. If you get more like that you'll give the project a terrific new vector. Good luck. I'll be anxious to hear how they work out.

the other male is also super nice as is the female patternless I am working with. The female that laid the most recent clutch is an albino het for patternless with very little pattern. thanks for the kind words. Mike Panichi
-----
honesty is my only policy

CONGRATULATIONS!Mike,nice animals!are those the love bloodline?Dave Powell

z
-----
honesty is my only policy

Since albino quadrivittata lose their juvenile pattern and become patternless bright yellow ratsnakes as adults, what is the advantage of having a patternless hatchling? I would think that it will eventually look more or less the same as it's albino het siblings. It's kinda like producing an aberrant gaigeae, looks cool but eventually it wont matter.
It definitely looks different as a hatchling but wouldn't it end up being patternless eventually anyway? I'm just trying to figure out why it would be necessary to breed a black ratsnake x everglades (bubblegum) to a striped yellow ratsnake to produce almost the same exact look as a adult albino yellow ratsnake.
I don't mean to criticize the project...just kinda curious about the appearance of this snake as an adult.
Thanks,
Chris

>>Since albino quadrivittata lose their juvenile pattern and become patternless bright yellow ratsnakes as adults, what is the advantage of having a patternless hatchling?

See my post below. I think they are pretty neat, its very odd to see an obsoleta hatchling without blotches,

>>I'm just trying to figure out why it would be necessary to breed a black ratsnake x everglades (bubblegum) to a striped yellow ratsnake to produce almost the same exact look as a adult albino yellow ratsnake. I don't mean to criticize the project...just kinda curious about the appearance of this snake as an adult.

I think the reason they introduced 'bubblegum' rat bloodlines was to add the albino gene into the project. I doubt if albino yellow rats were as commonly available back in the 80's as they are now. Just a thought.

Certainly neat snakes, whether in the normal or albino form.

Later,
-----
Dwight Good
http://www.kingsnake.com/obsoleta

the hatchlings arent patternless they are striped and broken striped. I didnt start the line so I really cant comment on why something was done in the late 70's. As Dwight eluded too, I doubt there were too many albinos around back then. I trust the people who started the line were honest about them and since the group I have havent been crossed with anything, It doesnt matter much to me. I think they are really nice looking snakes and they are very easy to handle and work with. Thanks. Mike Panichi
-----
honesty is my only policy

You pick up a w/c juvenile striped yellow ratsnake. That means it didn't start out with blotches or pattern, it already has stripes. An adult albino yellow ratsnake doesn't have stripes, but generally retains remnants of the juvenile pattern. An adult albino quadrivittata isn't completely patternless I thought. You don't want to use an albino yellow ratsnake because that defeats the purpose of not having juvenile pattern. You don't take a patternless snake and breed it back to the patterned one. You do have your own bubblegum ratsnakes that you produce. You produce your bubblegums by breeding the amel Marcia Lincoln everglades bloodline with an amel blackratsnake. You know your bubblegums are in the obsoleta complex. Your Marcia Lincoln is pure everglades having been inbred for 30 years now. There is no yellow ratsnake influence in the bubblegum. If there was then the yellow ratsnake influence would again try to retain some of the juvenile pattern. You breed the bubblegum to the w/c ratsnake that doesn't have any juvenile pattern. You possibly can produce a patternless, stripeless, yellow/orange, yellow, orange, etc pure obsoleta complex ratsnake. Sounds like a project that is worth the time and effort to me.

>>Since albino quadrivittata lose their juvenile pattern and become patternless bright yellow ratsnakes as adults, what is the advantage of having a patternless hatchling? I would think that it will eventually look more or less the same as it's albino het siblings. It's kinda like producing an aberrant gaigeae, looks cool but eventually it wont matter.
>> It definitely looks different as a hatchling but wouldn't it end up being patternless eventually anyway? I'm just trying to figure out why it would be necessary to breed a black ratsnake x everglades (bubblegum) to a striped yellow ratsnake to produce almost the same exact look as a adult albino yellow ratsnake.
>> I don't mean to criticize the project...just kinda curious about the appearance of this snake as an adult.
>> Thanks,
>> Chris

As Mike pointed out, these are crosses between black,yellow, and everglades rats. The original 'blotchless' animal was typical looking yellow/glades rat from south Florida. Click here for more info.

In addition, here is a quote from the 1996 Blue Chameleon Ventures (now CornUtopia) price list:

"BLOTCHLESS RATS Elaphe obsoleta ssp. A recessive trait discovered here in Everglades Rats in which the animals never have dorsal blotches, even as hatchlings! We developed this strain just to see what it looks like, especially as an albino..... Non-Albinos.....40.00 Albinos......... 55.00"

In 1997, Kathy changed the name of this cultivar from "Blotchless Rats" to Xanadu Rats.

Then on the 1998 CornUtopia price list is the following quote:

"WHATCHAMACALL'EM RATS Elaphe obsoleta ssp - A recessive trait discovered here in our Rat snake colony in which the animals never have dorsal blotches, even as hatchlings! We're playing with crossing this strain just to see what it looks like in different variations, including as an albino. Formerly called 'Blotchless Rats' and 'Xanadu Rats' on old lists, we renamed them a bit more creatively again this year to see if we can finally find one that inspires more interest. Kathy says they're really neat, but Bill can't think of a descriptive word to accurately convey his particular enthusiasm for the project. Must see to appreciate!
Albino specimens are .......... 75.00 Non-albinos are ..... 35.00

Subsequently, in 1999 CornUtopia renamed the morph again, to simply 'Striped Rats.'

This should give everyone a good idea as to the origins of this cultivar and how it has evolved over the years. I think its safe to say that Kathy and Bill Love are the ones we owe our gratitude for making these animals available in the pet trade. The albinos are beautiful! However, since they have stopped working with them (AFAIK) these animals will (have?) become increasingly harder to find, albinos and normals.

Here are some photos from my personal collection, although I am no longer working with the 'blotchless' strain. The animal pictured below is a normal phase blotchless animal I produced a few years ago:

As the normals mature, they begin to look like regular Everglades rats. The plain grey hatchling color intensifies into a bright orange. Here is an adult female:

In addition to my pics above, Travis G posted a photo of one of his normal blotchless animals in this post in the forum archives.

Hope this helps,
-----
Dwight Good
http://www.kingsnake.com/obsoleta