Reptile & Amphibian Forums

went in for a few hours today, it was reaaaly packed. tons of balls, lots of torts/chams. Nerd, southerland sp?, and kahl (sp?), best in my book. Nerd definently has some combos ive never seen or heard of before, mostly with axanthics/spiders/and pins, the pin combos were my favorite...pins defiently went up in my book. satan must be years ahead of everyone in the morph combo game...
saw Lots of cinamons and s number of black pastels on the tables, not many gettin moved though, not sayin that means anything at all. the yellowbellies and even a few ivories i saw sold severak times. i cant remember the table but i saw a 'listed as new morph' that looksed just like a pin with almost no pattern at all (a few scattered zigzags). I saw almost no and no for sales of the following (clowns, sables, super cins/blks, and pewter/combos) , also saw no snows though i wanted to see one (not saying there wasnt any possibly there)

most expensive animal seen award goes too...white Calico retic $45,000 if im not mistaken

there was a very small number of tables with less than perfect herps but for the most part the VAST majority of the dealers, especially the bigger guys were very proffesional and had from what i could see very healthy and excellent looking animals.

i picked up a few 600-800g girls and a few younger het hypo females but managed not to go too crazy (amost bought an aldabra tort!? lol in retrospect that woulda been a BAd idea) i love those though.

by the way i would love to here anyone elses views and would very much like to here from the dealers on how there sales went.
dont quote me on anything these were just my personal views

yikes, jeez didnt mean to ramble on so long...good night

nt

i was as impressed with some morphs in person, however i really liked the thunder and lightning balls as well as the few genetic strips i saw in person, very nice.

don't you mean vanilla and super vanilla, after all Gulf Coast Reptiles were the ones to prove the morph out years before Cypress Creek. Here's a pic of my striped vanilla male from GCR, enjoy.

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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of female holdbacks and several rescue normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I think I saw you in the parking lot around 3PM. There were like 3 of you?

Well, getting inside to see the actual show was really messed up this year - once we entered the building it took us nearly 30 min just to get to the registration desk. And not due to long lines. They had a narrow path all around half the 2nd tier with things to look at. That had people stopping and blocking the rest of those who wanted to get in. Other than that fiasco, the show was pretty normal.

Listed prices on BPs were actually pretty good this year. Some of the lows I saw:

Spider male: $875
Pastel male: $200
Mojave: $1,000

I picked up a YB but that's it. Overall it was a good day.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Why do you people feel the need to post low of the lowest prices you have seen? now some idiot will think that is the going rate and post one lower,,,,,how about telling us the highest prices you saw,,,,, build some confidence

we have some real smart people on these forums

real reason market crashes?? look in the mirror.....

N/P

>>we have some real smart people on these forums

Yep. Need only look at your post.

>>
>>real reason market crashes?? look in the mirror.....

Been doing this for a long time. It's those (like you) that panic at every mention of dropped prices and think that the "BP market" is immune from normal supply and demand rules that I find humorous.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Agreed, well said Jay
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

Actually I dont panic because I have nothing to lose in this market...

The reason the market crashes is because of all the people who cry about it and post lowball prices etc on a daily basis.

The people who created the markets knew what they were doing,, unfortunately they sold the snakes to bozos who crash it overnight

Congrats

"THISDUDE", if you have "nothing to loose in this market", then why post?

I like the snakes and enjoy messing with them....

If the market dies tomorrow makes no difference to me, I will still enjoy and still mess with em

The only thing I dont like is watching alot of wannabe businessmen think they are market wizards etc.

Everyone wants to rip on [bleep] but in reality most of you are mini [bleep] in your own right. I do have a great deal of respect for those who created this market in the first place, I must say that,,,, not so much respect for the people who took it from there.

Ugh, can we stop with the bashing already? We understand that you (ThisDude) are ...displeased with people in the market. Honestly, unless you've been ripped off by someone who sold you a sick snake or something along those lines, there's no point to your griping. You're complaining about something that you really have no control over. It's like complaining about the weather being too hot - do you really think a diety is going to hear you and flip on the global AC, or wave a magic wand and raise the prices on ball python morphs?
I only discovered this forum a few days ago, and for the most part I'm impressed by the knowledge and the general comraderie. It's a welcome change from the typical internet scene someone my age (I'm 19) would see. Thanks!

~jenny

"I only discovered this forum a few days ago, and for the most part I'm impressed by the knowledge and the general comraderie. It's a welcome change from the typical internet scene someone my age (I'm 19) would see. Thanks!"

That's only due to the fact that we know nobody else will have us...so,we're stuck with each other.Or is it because nerds stick together?

Stick around,i'm sure you will have a heart filled opinion of your own to add soon enough.

Welcome to our insanity.
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Charles

He was reporting what he saw.
Show prices may change. Some vendors want a fast buck to cover their cost for the show. And sometimes the cheapest price may not be the best deal. BTW were they eaters?
Still Mojaves at 1k......Someone was saying that they were cheaper than that too here on KS....yes/no?
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

Yes, they were going for $800 for males. The breeder boasted of selling over 40 in just 36 hours.

That's 40 MALES, who will breed sooner than later, and add atleast another couple hundred Mojaves to next year's 'crop'.

Factor in the male Mojaves sold this year by the dozens of other Mojave breeders and next year the price will be low, low, low.

BB
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"Have you hugged your drummer today?" --- Me

And I might add that those were the lowest I saw, however, the vast majority of prices among sellers averaged about the same which were several hundred $ more for mojaves and spiders. Of course, pastels are all over the board. I saw some great prices on adults.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Not trying to get into a pissing contest with anyone imparticular but its the bigger breeder that kills the market for the little guy. They produce such big numbers that they can knock the price down until the small breeder has to kill him/herself to compete. It used to be said that small business is what made this country what it is today but look at it now when Wal-Marts, and McDonalds push the little guy out of public eye by using those terrible practices. But I have only been in this ball thing for about 5 years and I do it for the love of the animal and for a little side cash (and anyone that says they do it strictly for the love of the animal is full of sh*t) but its just impossible to compete with the people like (Morph King
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Damian Macioce
www.strongholdreptiles.com

It didnt post the rest of my post I said (Morph King
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Damian Macioce
www.strongholdreptiles.com

Still not letting me post the rest of my message but I have nothing against those 2 guys at Morph King but it is my opinon and we are still allowed that to some extent and thats what built this country was freedom of speech. Thanks for listening
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Damian Macioce
www.strongholdreptiles.com

I was enjoying the talk of Daytona (I couldn't go), and once again I am reading about people's opinion on why the market is "crashing". The "market" shouldn't be more important than the hobby, and certainly it is not the most important thing to discuss in regards to Daytona....I am loving the talk of the new crosses! Anyone have more on that...pics anyone?
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8.15 Normal ball pythons
2.0 Pastel ball pythons
1.0 Plains Garter
0.1 Normal Kenyan Sand Boa
1.1 Anery Kenyan Sand Boa
1.0 Mid-Baja Rosy Boa
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat
1.2 Dumeril's Boa
-----My list is too long, so I'll stop here!
*Amy*

Don't know about crosses but the albino pied and black ball in person are quite wicked looking. I didn't think an albino pied would look that great. Boy was I wrong! Very nice!
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

JMartin, Come on man, I know you took some pics............How about showing us a pic of the albino pied, or some axanthic crosses? I'm dying to see some pics!!!!! Joe
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1.1 Pied ball python
0.1 Spider ball
1.0 100% het pied ball python
1.0 Albino ball python
0.2 100% het Albino ball pythons
1.0 Pastel ball python
0.1 Normal ball python
0.0.1 Green tree python (Aru LT)
0.0.1 Green tree python (Wamena LT)
1.0 Leucistic Texas ratsnake
2.0 Cornsnakes

I was going to take my camera but decided against it - I went Sat but normally go Sun. Glad I didn't, it was so crowed. Getting pics would have been crazy.

But thanks for the reminder on Axanthics. There were some awesome looking hatchlings and adults.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Axanthic crosses?
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

>>Axanthic crosses?

I don't think I saw any. Hmmm.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Nerd had Bumblebee Axanthics and Killer Bee Axanthics. . .as well as some cool Cinny bumblebees hatching. Sorry no pics, but I saw some pics being taken of them. I'm sure you will see them.

peace,
Ian Daviss

I shop at Wal-Marts, and eat at McDonald's don't you?
When you purchased your animals did you look for pricing? How about your auto?
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

I think what the people are getting at is that there are some breeders who have become a factory. Let's breed 4 Mojave males to 40 females, and make a ton of Mojaves, instead of breeding those 4 Mojave males to 10 normal females total, some Pastel females, some Mojave females, some ghost females, and making crosses. When cool crosses come out, the price of those morphs stay steady or go up a bit, when you have to dump morphs, the price goes down. Once down, I do not see a way to recover, there will be even more next year to dump. It is a shame. Some obvious breeders are trying to make their money back in one year, but killing things for next year, and for those who have produced only a few morphs, and a few of each morph. Glad I kept my day job. And those who got their $2000 morphs for $500, lets see how happy you are with your purchase next year when you cannot GIVE away your offspring!

Give all your mophs to me I will take them for sure.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

Yep..."what a deal i got!"...and now,nobody cares.

...you don't see diamonds going for less just because there are more of them...Why?...because those people know that the consumers don't NEED them.They want them...(That and the fact that gemstones don't have upkeep...yep these breeders are lazy...yea,i said it!)
Although,i would wager that if these gem dealers had "spring cleaning sales" like some/alot-of ball breeders do.Then we would all have the coolest looking gravel driveways ever!
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Charles

Yes I personally like shopping at Wal-Mart they do have great deals and very very seldom eat at McDonalds. But thats not the point this is a small and fragile market we are not talking about everything from apples to wall paper this is ball pythons nothing more. And for those of you who think Im crying about the market Im not its like any other investment you make some go up and others fall through the floor if you check back over all the talk the last year or so about pricing I have said nothing at all but I had to voice my opinion. Emberball that was as about good as it can be said they like alot of other people do not put a little fore-thought into things they want everything right now. And Coldthumb youre right also there is no need for the big factory types to kill everyone to make their money thats why jewlers dont do that it would actually kill the world market not just the United States (hence fore-thought) But like I said Im not crying about it but like some of the other people that I talk to that have been in this for years longer than I have they wouldnt give their money to the mass producers for the simple fact in someway its comdoning what they are doing. Thanks for listening
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Damian Macioce
www.strongholdreptiles.com

First off, the guys at Morph King were breeding Leucistic males to females...that's how they got so many Mojaves.

Second: Prices fall. That's a market. You can cry about it or you can strive for that new combo...or hey...how about this...
Put an ad in the paper selling your snakes instead of just selling to other hobbyists.
It sounds sleazy, but the uneducated buyer is going to pay the higher price...point blank.
If you're selling to other hobbyist, they're most likely up to speed on ball pythons.
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-Man fears the beast in the Wolf because he does not understand the beast within himself.

diamonds would be cheap as dirt..well.ok..but a whole lot cheaper......but they are regulated by the mine owners.the DeBeers mine only exports so many a year and to certain areas...and you have to pay to be on a list and etc etc etc

organised crime...I mean diamonds....

...you want to start a ball python mafia?......buy them all then resell at your cost.....

that's how it's done.....

all for the money

.........I got some emus I'll sell you cheap........ostrich?
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................................................it's a buyer's market......
......................................

Why should co-doms be so high priced? They are not rare, not hard to breed, and a lot of them are not as good looking as the recessive morphs.The big picture is when they fall, down to pet store level no one will be able to keep up with the demand, and they will sell for $50-$100 at pet co for example.Look at corn snakes they sell for $8-$10 ea wholesale but breeders sell out of 2000 in less than a few weeks. Ball pythons will be at that level soon enough and everyone will want them. When that happens you might not be able to get $500 for a pastel, but at $50ea you can sell them 100 times faster. If you want to make the good $$ then like anything else in life you need to spend $$ to make it.Guys like NERD,[bleep],VPI,RDR,SK,etc all paid good money to get started and have earned there way to the top,by creating new combo's and getting new morphs started not by taking the easy road and breeding co-doms to normals.So if they want to sell them cheap let them, the more they make the more they sell.
Just my 2 cents.

For all the new guys like my self and old the OG breeders, why dont we just hold prices where they should be? let the fly by night guys crash and burn. let them sell out so that next year when they have twice as many animals they wont make anymore money and or people just wont by from them!
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Dave

www.DNReptiles.com
Myspace/DNReptiles
Myspace/blog

the shame is in the people that think the market is crashing. Is it changing, well yeah it has to. 4 years ago people were running into the expo's with cash in hand trying to buy up every morph before someone else go to it. Now there are enough that the buyers can be picky. I saw one table that had some killer 06 super high contrast albino's that sold for over $1500 while that same table had some average albino's listed for $1100 and those stayed there the whole show unless they were bought after I made my last pass by the table in the last hour of the show. How do I know they sold for 1500, because I was standing next to the person buying them and watched the cash change hands. The best quality animals will sell fairly easily the sub-standard animals are where the problem lies. If you have ton's of very normal females in your colony, you need to phase them out and get some awesome females that can add some color to your morphs.

Another problem with the market is that people have forgotten that morphs need to be proven before they are put on the market. I couldn't tell you how many "new" morphs there were at daytona that were barely different from normal but had "guarentees" about their genetics. How can someone guarentee anything without breeding it, it just doesn't make sense.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of female holdbacks and several rescue normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

nt

I was a vendor at the show this weekend. I had alot of balls and was a little worried about how it was going to be with all the balls, but I will personally attest to the fact that balls sales were brisk. Our table alone sold 40k alone in just balls. I am not counting trades which we also did which were fun. 40 in actual sales, and i do not even specialize in balls. The prices were not even crazy as i thought they might be. I heard of a few very good deals that people did get on hatchlings but i also heard of some very good sales on nicer examples of morphs selling for far more than market. We sold a baby male ghost that was pretty for $1500 and i sold every yellowbelly female i brought for $1000ea without even negotiating once. We sold pieds-ghosts-yellowbellies-lavendar albinos-pastels-mojaves. We did not see much action on the cinns or the het reds, but did not expect to to be honest. I did talk to one other vendor who sold 6 or 7 cinns at the show. I know one ball and boa breeder did well over 100k, alot of that being balls. I went in a skeptic to the show over the whole ball thing and came out beleiving the market is still very strong. With so many morphs available now, the buyers are getting savvy in what they want to purchase, but that is a good thing. Some morphs are coming forward as more desirable and some less desireable, and that is going to happen in any market. The market is fine, probably getting even better with alot more people getting into the morphs now that they are more affordable. This is all honest observation from this weekend. The show was great, i only wished i had more of a chance to get away from the table and walk around. Got a chance this morning for about 30 minutes before the show opened and saw some awesome stuff. Pete Kahl had some awesome pieds--nerd had some amazing new stuff(the axanthic supers(i think thats what they were) were awesome as well as the ivory retics---bhb as usual had some unreal looking animals--the sutherlands had some beauties--amir had snow white yearling ivories that looked like leucies and jarod horensteins super stripes were on display(the nicest morph imo)-rdr had alot of smoking larger animals on display--and there were so many others that had great looking stuff that i could not even remember where and when i saw it. Of notable interest were axanthic blackheads that tom keogan hatched out(smokin)-an albino big head turtle-as so much more. I said i was not going to buy any balls because i was nervouse about the market, but by sunday afternoon, i purchased a ghost male, an albino female-5 pastels, an 05 spider female, a very unique unproven harlequin, an adult yellowbelly male(dont ask me why?) and a new line het red axanthic. Tons of fun to be had by all and most of the vendors i spoke with did well.

Ben Siegel

AMEN,,, NICE TO HEAR SOME POSITIVE COMMENTS ABOUT THE MARKET.

THANK U,, A NICE CHANGE FROM THE DOOMSDAY PREDICTIONS

Thats great Ben,thats the way it all works i agree.Its a trickle down affect,the lower the cost of the morph ,the more people can get into it.Very Good post there on your view of things and how it works..Gotta love the Animals to begain with,and the more people in this the merrier

Greg VanZweden

http://www.vanzwedenreptiles.com/

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Forever Trust in what we are,and nothing else Matters

Ben, you had a nice setup and I'm glad we were able to see it. I only wish hubby and I had more cash this year, but we did pick up a young female at the auction and a juvenile from our friend Alan Bosch, so it wasn't totally a bust! We also picked up a new Helix and a rack for our snakes, which we really needed!
This was our first year at Daytona and there were a LOT of people there - I'm glad to see you did well in sales this weekend! I can't wait to see next year!

if you cannot sell it right away, at least you are looking at a snake you like everyday when you clean the cage and feed em

Dave

EMBER---EXACTLY!!-that is what i have been saying this year--as a matter of fact, i brought my female yb to the show saying-hell-i will put them out at a $1000, and if they do not sell, i will take them home no problem. I was a little sorry to see them all go, but i have another clutch of 14 so i should still be able to keep a couple-Ben