Reptile & Amphibian Forums

okay.... I've had my burn around 2 years or so... And I'll be the first to admit that he was handled a lot more when I first got him then currently....

When I first got him I read all about burms, etc... caring for them and such....

I haven't been feeding him all that much because I was reading that they can go for a year without eating, don't have to eat every week, etc.... so he probably eats around 1 large rat every 2 weeks....

I know that snakes have mood just like people and I don't mess with him once he has eaten, when he is about to shed etc....

Just have a few questions to all the experts in here....

How often should you take them out for them to remain tame?? It just seems that whenever I take the top off he is ready to eat, maybe he has gotten used to not coming out so much and the top coming off just triggers his attack mode....

I'm trying to become a better owner than I have been.... Please help me out and post some tips and such to making sure he remains tame....

I've been feeding him the rats live and was just wondering if I should switch to frozen rats.... just don't think he will eat the frozen ones....

"so he probably eats around 1 large rat every 2 weeks...."

You say that you have had this burm for a little over two years now, yet you are only feeding him large rats? This animal should be on rabbits by now. Just because an animal CAN go long periods of time without food, doesn't mean it should. I would say that you have been way underfeeding this snake if he is still taking large rats. Start kicking him food more frequently and start jumping the size of the prey.

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>>How often should you take them out for them to remain tame?? It just seems that whenever I take the top off he is ready to eat, maybe he has gotten used to not coming out so much and the top coming off just triggers his attack mode....

Next issue...."take the top off" indicates that you have this animal in an aquarium which is completely unsuitable for a large constrictor. This animal needs to be placed in a wooden cage or a cage built similar to what you would see on www.visioncages.com. Keeping a large constrictor in an aquarium is simply asking for trouble.
As for your direct question, one of the things you should be keeping is a snake hook by his cage. Whenever you get ready to remove him from his enclosure, you can use the snake hook to prepare him and make sure he realizes that food is not coming in. This will help you to prevent a bite out of feeding response.

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>>I'm trying to become a better owner than I have been.... Please help me out and post some tips and such to making sure he remains tame....

It's good that you are trying to become a better owner, however, there are several things that you need to work on. You say that you have done "LOTS" of reading? Which books have you read? I think you still have plenty of research to do my friend.

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>>I've been feeding him the rats live and was just wondering if I should switch to frozen rats.... just don't think he will eat the frozen ones....

Just as I am sure you have read in the materials you "researched", feeding live is bad all around.
A.) If the prey animal fights back, it can injure your snake.
B.) It is inhumane to the prey animal
C.) Quite inconvenient

By freeding your snake frozen/thawed rodents, you are making it much easier to provide your snake a very frequent food supply, prevent any injuries to your snake and at the same time preventing cruelty to the animal you are providing as prey.

Please continue to do research and hopefully get this snake back on the right track.

Best Wishes,

Chris

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My Website
www.herpfanatic.com

A.) If the prey animal fights back, it can injure your snake.
B.) It is inhumane to the prey animal
C.) Quite inconvenient

Hmm, we'll have to disagree here, I suppose.

A) has some truth to it, certainly- although a healthy Burm eating a properly sized prey animal...I've never seen a serious injury in nearly 30 years now. A sick or cold snake, improper prey, unsupervised, sure. Common sense is a requirement.

B) is just silly- nothing is more natural than a predator taking prey. I liken this to shooting a deer with a tranquilizer dart before shooting it with a 30.06. Beating the rat over the head or freezing it alive is more...humane? Hmmm. Better yet, let the pet shop or rat breeder kill it for you! Bound to be easier on the...rat? I know! Set up a Co2 gas chamber! I'm sure our Jewish friends could comment on the humane-ness of THAT. Regardless what you do, at some point a live rat becomes a dead one. Being eaten completes a circle, being beat over the head...just hurts.

C) How so? Depends on your setup, I suppose.

Other than coming off a tad harsh to an obvious newbie, I agree with the rest of your post, but feeding live or prekilled is a judgement call, not a moral judgement. Snakes are predators, as, of course, are we.

Cheers,

Jamie
Texas predator, and very glad to be.

Well, as for how often to handle him to keep him tame, this varies from snake to snake- I've had young burms that would get nippy if they weren't handled weekly or so, and others (the majority) that stayed tame even if ignored for considerably longer periods.

Some folks recommend feeding in a seperate enclosure- i.e. a place you put him to feed only. I'm not a fan of this philosophy, but it's purely personal choice. I tend to take snakes with nippy tendencies out with a hook, instead- they seem to learn quickly that an incoming hook means it's not dinner time.

My only objection to feeding in a seperate enclosure has to do more with hatchlings or younger snakes that are difficult feeders. Probably the most common reason for a young or WC snake not to eat is stress- so it makes no sense, to me, to allow a snake to get comfortable in an enclosure, then stick him in a new one and expect him to eat. Again, though, personal choice- if you don't like hooks, you might have good luck with this method.

Frozen/live food...I enjoy snakes primarily because they are amazingly efficient predators. Therefore, I don't feed prekilled or frozen...I don't believe live is healthier, in fact frozen rodents don't have problems with mites/ticks, etc...but I do believe the snakes or monitors enjoy the hunt. Again, though...personal choice. I don't believe that frozen vs live affects their aggressiveness- that Jacobson organ tells them what's food and what's not pretty reliably. Just don't handle rats or gerbils, etc, then reach for your snake.
Burms seem to be remarkably sociable for snakes- and curious. If any snake enjoys human contact (for other than warmth) it's probably a Burm. More likely they consider us noisy moving trees.

One note of caution- snakes can- and do- go extended periods without food. A large Burm can probably go much longer than a year- but this isn't healthy for them. True, in the wild they don't eat nearly as regularly as they do in captivity, and short fasts- 6 weeks or so- occasionally, (adult burms) might even be good for them...but please don't think you should stop feeding your guy for a year! (Sounds like you know better, but just to be sure..)

Hope this helps- best of luck!

Jamie
Schertz, TX

First off I would like to comment on on feeding outside of the snakes permanent enclosure. If we are here to educate and to train and aid new herpers in the "proper" methods then there are some things that truely should not be left up to personal choice. Feeding outside of the permanent enclosure is one of these practices that is jus wrong and unsafe when we are dealing with large constrictors. There are several reasons why this practice is unacceptable. First off it requires moving the snake shortly after the snake has fed. This causes a lot of undue stress on the snake which could lead to regurgitation. Anyway, anyone that has ever came home to and had to clean up the remains of a partially digested meal will completely agree with me when I say it is something that you will only want to do once in your lifetime. The more important reason for not feeding outside of the enclosure is the safety of the keeper. Burms often will stay in feeding mode for quite awhile after you have fed it. If the snake is still "hunting" when you come in and attempt to relocate it back to its permanent enclosure it is pretty easy for your snake to mistake you for its next meal. I have seen this happen numorous times and if the snake is large it is not a situation you want to put yourself into so the best way to avoid this is to eliminate the circumstances that will allow that to happen. So the accepted method for feeding large boids is to always feed in the enclosure.
Next, how large is your snake. By two years your snake should easily be 7 feet. That in my opinion would be a small snake, but it would be acceptable. Anything smaller then that and the snake is definitly being underfed and its growth is being stunted. I agree that well before two years that your snake should be eating rabbits. It is insane to still have yours on rats. Depending on the size of the snake and its health you should be feeding a two year old burm no more then once every 7 days but no less then every 15 days. And that is an appropriate size meal (which is not a rat or two).
Lets get to your enclosure. I agree completely with herpwhisperer that large snbakes should not be kept in aquariums. A large burm could easily shatter the glass with a missed strike. This could easily result in severe damage to the snake, and an escape. Invest the money in a proper enclosure or spend the time and build one. Good examples of enclosures are from vision cages, animal plastics, boaphile to name a few. You will notice that all of these cages have front doors rather then top doors. Burms are far more likely to bite when housed in a top opening cage. I believe this is because that in the wild not many things are lower then a snake. Therefore any and all attackers will always come at the snake from above. When you open the cage and reach in you are presenting yourself as possiby a predator and the snake will naturally react defensively. I also agree that you should be using a snake hook to remove your burm. It will help condition the snake that the hook means no food and therefore it will/should remain calm. I forgot to mention this also, but if you have not ahndled your snake much then it is going to naturally have been conditioned that whenever the top is opened that it is going to get food. That is another reason that the snake might seem agitated when you try to remove it from its enclosure.
Lastly, I think it is not the owners choice whether to feed live or f/t. I have seen numorous snakes kept my irresponsible or inept keepers that had bites from live prey. Even supervised it is very easy for a rat to inflict a serious bite. You can not react fast enough to stop the rat from biting. Now hopefully this happens the snake heals alright and the only remnents of the incident is a scar. However teh chance of infection is very real and this can cause serious problems that will require a vet trip. The only responsible way to maintain snakes is to work on getting them on f/t f/k prey items. Now, not to bash on herpwhisperer but his statements are the perfect example of why people feed live. The owner enjoys watching this. In my opinion this is a shallow and irresponsible thought process. You are willing to risk injury to your snake simply because you like to watch a perfect predator in action. I mean no disrepect but that is extremely shallow and not very repsonsible. That are instances where you have no choice but to feed live but please try and try and try to switch all your herps to feed on f/k.
Sorry this is so long, but I have been gone for a year but I am back now. I hope you understand what I was trying to get accross and I hope I did not offend anyone. Todd

Todd,
We obviously disagree on a few points and agree on others- as for me, I certainly don't take offense just because of a difference of opinion, provided these differences are expressed, as you have done, in a mature manner.
I did want to clarify a few things- I NEVER intentionally endorsed the idea of feeding outside of an enclosure- I'm not in favor of feeding outside of the normal enclosure at all, but what I mentioned as a "judgement call" was having a second enclosure where the snake was fed- when I kept numerous giants, I built a small facility that included shift cages. The retics and Burms were fed in the shift cages, which could be blocked off from the main enclosure by closing a door. Therefore, when the snake was eating , the enclosure could be cleaned without stressing him out or endangering volunteer help. A smaller version of this is sometimes used by our more...timid...herper friends to make feeding time safer. I see no need for it with smaller snakes, but neither do I see harm in it- other than, as I mentioned, the change of environment causing feeding problems in younger or WC snakes.
The major point where you and I diverge, however, is of course the feeding of live vs prekilled prey. Hot topic these days!
I don't feed live to my burms because I'm shallow and I want to watch- I do so because I'm not interested in creating domesticated snakes. They are predators, and I firmly believe they enjoy the hunt. I also work with raptors- Eagles, Hawks, Falcons, Owls- which are also predators, of course. Watch a hawk or a burm hunting, and you see an animal in it's element, doing what it was created to do. The sight of a big healthy burm gently taking a thawed mouse from a set of forceps sickens me at least as much as my supposed irresponsibility bothers you.
There are snakes I don't like feeding live- Balls, for instance, are terrible hunters, missing more often than they hit. Frozen works well for them, I admit. Any snake that is ill, cold, etc, should receive prekilled. They should also be fed a properly sized prey animal...too large or too small can be dangerous for them. Live prey should never be left in an enclosure uneaten, even for a few minutes, IMHO. But to say that a snake doing what a snake was meant to do is based on shallow values or irresponsibility...I'm afraid I can't agree with that concept. I've kept herps, particularly Burms, Retics, and Monitors, for nearly 30 years now, I've run a rescue facility, been a reptile consultant for two major zoos, and owned a commercial breeding business. Although a degree in herpetology was not available when I was in college, I did specialize in herpetology. I have never, since obtaining my first Burm in 1978, had a serious injury occur to any of my reptiles due to feeding live prey...and very few minor injuries, none of consequence. I do respect your opinion- as I stated in my earlier post, it's a judgement call, and must be based on your experience, the type of snake you own, his condition, etc.

I enjoyed your thoughtful- and thought provoking- post!

Cheers!

JJ

>>I was reading that they can go for a year without eating

You may have read a little too much into this. What they mean is that a large burmese that is mature and no longer growing quickly can eat a large meal (like half it's body weight) and then go for a year without eating and not actually die. They don't mean it's normal or a good idea.

How long/heavy is your burm now, and do you know it's sex? It certainly should be big enough to be eating more than that...

I supect there's a good reason he's acting hungry all the time...

My burmese is a male.... hes about 5 feet I would say...

Its not that I'm waiting months and months to feed him, its just that I'm not shoving rats down him as fast as he can eat them....

After reading all the replies I'm going to get ready to build a larger cage......

Thinking similar to this one
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.php?photo=281446

Probably use plexi glass for the sides like the kid did, just thinking about how I'm going to do the top....

Going to make it pretty big so I won't have to build another one for a while....

I think I'm going to start keeping a record book of every time he eats and maybe start feeding him a large rat or 2 every 10 days....

If anyone has any good cage ideas, it would be more than helpful at this time....

Thanks for all the replies

I would strongly recommend you try and feed 1/2 to 1 pound rabbits to him. At five foot he is large enough to start eating small rabbits. he will gain weight and length quickly once he gets on rabbits. Todd