Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We have a White's Tree Frog that appears to be sick but has no symptoms of red leg and appears to have a normal body weight.

We have lost a couple of White's Tree Frogs so cleanliness is a top priority which we adhere to. The frog seems to be very shakey and unsure of it's balance and is very lethargic. The coloring is normal but it is without energy.

We purchased this frog from a home which could no longer keep it, someone who has had experience with these animals. It was purchased with another White's which unfortunately passed on due to what would seem to be an inability to move it's legs. This frog appears to be going the same direction. Could it be age or is the frog trying to hibernate. What else should we be watching for? Is there a suggested link for White's Tree Frogs?

Take him to a vet immediately. That is the best advice I can give.

http://www.froggie.info/
Here is a place with some good caresheets.

If you could also post about set up, feeding, temps, humidity, etc. That may also be helpful to others who can help more so than I can.

or you can check out my site, it also has good info!
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http://luke_zecevic.tripod.com/frogsofaustralia

Whites' do not hibernate or practice any other form of dormancy, so this is not the cause. I wonder why you say you have no symptoms of Red Leg since the lethargy, weakness and disequilibrium you report are classic symptoms of the same. There is a common misconception that Red Leg Disease has something to do with redness in the legs, but it usually does not.

Lastly I am concerned about your note that you adhere to strict cleanliness. This makes me wonder if you do not have a composting substrate (like soil, coir, peat)and therefore may have to keep cleaning the cage. This disturbance is actually stressful and unnecessary. Also it is unnecessary to clean the water bowl with anything other than hot water and a sponge dedicated to this purpose only.

Henry Capobianco

I use spaghum moss as a substrate, which I rinse weekly. No soil or coconut husks are used. It would appear no that the frog has a calcium deficiency. His symptoms consists of muscule tremors and twitching on the toe pads and he is very stiff.

I have given him three drops of T-Rex Bone Aid and he appears to being doing better. I wish I knew the correct dose so I going to give him a drop twice a day for the next couple of days and monitor his progress.

Any advise on calcuim deficiency would be welcomed.

Thanks,

Steve

Tetany (toe twitching) is an early symptom of Red Leg Disease. I know that you will find this listed as a symptom of calcium desficiency but this is in my opinion an unverified extrapolation from the lizard model. In other words, because this twitching is a symptom of calcium deficiency in iguanas, it has been assumed that it means the same thing when it occurs in frogs. I contest this point.

I have had frogs with Red Leg Disease; they twitched, followed by convulsions and periods of paralysis, followed by bloating when the kidneys break down.

I have also had frogs who had calcium deficiency. These are almost always very young frogs which are growing fast. I have never seen it develop in a mature frog. The symptoms of calcium deficiency are lethargy and weakness but never have they twitched or had convulsions.

Unfortunately if this is Red Leg (a toxic condition) then the calcium supplementation may actually make it worse. Be on the lookout for the tetany progressing into convulsions with hindleg extension, followed by paralysis. If this happens it is not going to respond to calcium.

What are you rinsing the moss with? I know you are trying to do the right thing, but I honestly think you may want to eliminate that. At the least it's unnecessary. And since it's an unusual thing to do I have to suspect it may be contributing to stress in some way. My tanks are cleaned only once or twice a year; water bowl is rinsed and refilled almost every day. My frogs are very old and very healthy. When I first kept frogs I was fanatic about cleaning and those were the years when frogs got sick. I think they don't like the cage constantly fooled with.

Henry Capobianco

henry, frogs with a severe case of MBD can have sezures after a short burst of movement. eg: jumping, and then a sezure occurs

luke z
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http://luke_zecevic.tripod.com/frogsofaustralia

The number one outcome of my years working with frogs is that I can demonstrate thatt this is a myth. My data includes not only my frogs but from documenting five years of case histories from here and elsewhere.

Mull these over:

1. Frogs with the seizure symptom never respond to calcium supplementation. Without exception, they do not recover.

2. Frogs that do respond to calcium supplementation do survive but most often have permanent visible deformity. These frogs never exhibited tetany or seizures.

3. No frog has ever exhibited both the tetany/siezure symptoms and the deformity. That is, one set of symptoms does not progess into the other.

What does that say to you?

Henry

Frogs with the seizure symptom never respond to calcium supplementation. Without exception, they do not recover.

>>>>>>>>>>>i agree, many frogs with severe calcium deficiency will usually not recover. just because they do not react to calcium supplementation it does not mean that sezures are not due to MBD.

2. Frogs that do respond to calcium supplementation do survive but most often have permanent visible deformity. These frogs never exhibited tetany or seizures.
>>>>>>>>>>>i agree, if the frog has not got a severe case of MBD

3. No frog has ever exhibited both the tetany/siezure symptoms and the deformity. That is, one set of symptoms does not progess into the other.

>>>>>>>>>i disagree, a leading herpatologist has been doing research in australia of the long term affects of different forms of calcium deficiency. and he has concluded that sezures can and will happen to a frog which has a severe case of MBD or another calcium defieciency. this is a long term affect which happens after bone deformity.

i do not want to argue about this topic.and i respect your view on this subject.

luke z
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http://luke_zecevic.tripod.com/frogsofaustralia

WTF's do estavate through the winter in australia, when the temps are low, and when the humidity is also extremely low. this is a form of dormancy (which happens during winter)

luke z
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http://luke_zecevic.tripod.com/frogsofaustralia

Can you provide back up for this? I think this is also not true.

Henry

it is a known fact that litoria caerulea estivate during winter/ and times of drought!! many australian field guide books like (reptiles and amphibians" by H.G cogger, have stated that during winter/drought, the frogs will become inactive, while in this period there slough builds up forming a cocoon to hold in moisture. have you done any field research on this species in Australia?

luke z
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http://luke_zecevic.tripod.com/frogsofaustralia

I have given him 3 drops of T- Rexbone aid. and he is doing a little better the twitching has gone, he has better movement in his legs but he is still weak. He is soaking in a very weak solution of Tetracycline Hydrochloride. This I have read is helpful for redleg if it is caught early. I will update you on his progress.