Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OK, this popped up not to long ago. I was unable to find it, plus I do not recall a lot of pros to brumation. I've been around herps a long time. I know some old stuff from having a ton of stuff as a kid and learning new stuff. Years ago,,, 30ish,,, breeding was new ground and I was a kid. So I'm new at breeding. I did my BP's when I had them. 1 year brumation, 1 year I did not. 9 eggs then 8 eggs. Coin toss I guess. My lizards do not count. So:

I would just like to here simple pros and cons to brumation. I lost my cold space in my house this year. So brumating here is near impossible now. I can do it else where easy enough. But if people have good results without brumating as some stated before, what are other advantages, besides less work, and a lower feed bill?
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People with half the sense to do things right, do things wrong 50% of the time. {Me!}

Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

as you know...i'm not a pro at this...but my thinking is:

males are more able to produce better "men juices" when they brumate...
theres always the plus to not feeding a few months and the snakes sleeping...
but thats just 2 that i know of....

~kin
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~SNAKIES~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Corns:
.1 Normal (Gertrude)
1. unknown hypo? normal? (Romeo)
1.2 Miami Phase (Hector, Emily, Charlotte) thanks jeff!
1. Amel het Blizzard (Dunesbury)
1. Classic het Hypo, poss het Amel, Anery (Cobra)
1.1 Classics (Henry VIII, Cassy [Emilys babies])
.1 Amel (Pepperoni)
1.1 Hypo zig zags poss het Caramel (Bernard, Abegail)
.1 Classic{reduced black} het Hypo, Stripe (Gracie Lou)
1.1 Anery het Motley (Lleroy, Persia)

Rats:
1.1 Black rats (Willard, Cecily)

Cal Kings:
1.1 Striped Cal Kings (Dweezil, Skunky)

Other:
0.0.1 Worm Snake

~~~~~~~~~~~~~LEOPARD GECKOS~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1. Normal het Midnight Blizzard (Mr. Spot)
0.1 Blizzard (Blitz) was attacked by a cat and still living!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~TURTLES~~~~~~~~~~~~

.1 white cheeked mud (Opel)
.1 snapping turtle (no name, ideas welcome)

This has come up before and I have my opinion based on my experience but I'm interested in hearing from others.
As far as your BP's. They produced so you obviously did something that caused them to cycle you probably just were not aware of it, not intentional. BP's may cycle in a rack without adjusting the temps. They only need a 10 degree evening drop. This can happen naturally in your house. As well as shorter daylight hours. Others have reported the same results you got, cycling with temp drops just because their house temps dropped in the evening.
As far as colubrids, I say brumate. I live in an area of So. Cal. that is near the beach and I'm in a canyon. I use my garage which drops down into the 40's and even lower. Just south of me, only a few miles, the temps are normally 10-15 degrees warmer. I have been able to breed ruthveni and greeri when breeders just south of me got infertile eggs or no eggs. Both species have been known to require lower brumating temps.
I have noticed that on years when the temps are cooler, more rain, cooler temps into spring, I have produced more fertile eggs. This is also true of the local wildlife. This last spring and winter was not very wet nor was it cold. Myself and some other breeders in the area did not do so well. Not much to speak of as far as snakes that I have seen on hikes, in my front yard, DOR, etc. The previous year we had record rains, a longer, cooler winter, and I did much better. Also, many more snakes that I removed from my front yard and found on hikes.
Based on my observations of the local wildlife and breeding results of my colubrids, I say brumate.

I don't brumate, although I do reduce feeding to one large mouse every 3-4 weeks, November-January.

My results this year from my three breeding females are:

- 22 fertile eggs, 1 slug
- 22 fertile eggs, 2 slugs
- 22 fertile eggs, 2 slugs

That isn't a bad result as far as I'm concerned. Maybe brumating would have resulted in a couple more fertile eggs per female, but there's not so much of an advantage that it would be worth my while setting up a whole set of "winter quarters".

A serious advantage of brumating is a reduced workload, but the reduced feeding does just as well - less food = less poop = less cleaning. Held at their usual temperature, my Corns don't lose condition or weight through November-January. I had clutch results pretty much the same when I fed every fortnight all year round.

OK, I hope some more people (bigger breeders) reply. I talked to 3 people away from the forum, 2 confirmed my thoughts. Although some have very good fertility results, it's hard to make a blanket decision because no one knows where that snakes lineage is from. Far norh, far south, or in between. And even breeding 10-15 snakes is not a real test. For all I know brumating a corn from southern Florida may drop fertility. maybe? It's just i lost my easy way to brumate at my house. Tiny house to many people lol.

I may have to find a solid state cooler to help cool things,and have that on a biostat. Then a heater at ther higher temp end on a separate stat.

Still looking forward to more opinions.
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People with half the sense to do things right, do things wrong 50% of the time. {Me!}

Thanks
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

hey tom,
i know this does not help you but i do not intentionally brumate. i use only the temps that my house is at and in the winter in can drop its usually 62f from 8am-6pm and then 70f from 6pm-10pm then 62f from 10pm-6am and 70 from 6am-8am
as far as light cycle goes they get what comes through a window with heavy curtains. also i leave their heat on all the time and feed them as i would the rest of the year. I always get good results and my male has never had a problem with low fertility. this year my female laid a clutch of 19 and then a clutch of 16 with a 100% hatch rate.
adam
i know 1 pair does not come close to giving the info we need.

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hybrid breeders association
0.0.32 baby corns
2 leo eggs-due sept
0.1. normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0. snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0. amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons
0.2 normal leo geckos
1.0 blizzard leo gecko
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle

It would be interesting to here from Don and Kathy, and other large breeders.

Also sine brumation is mainly for the male to build sperm, would it also be an option to just brumate males?

I know this topic is subjective, but it would be interesting to see what the big guys think. Off topic I've spoke with Bob Applegate on incubating eggs in a variable temperature like nature vs a set temp. He said he did small tests through out the years. Slightly lower hatch rate, but seem to be stronger snakes. Again, He was not out to really prove anything, I think? just something he toyed with.

Thanks for everyones help
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People with half the sense to do things right, do things wrong 50% of the time. {Me!}

Thanks
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

They get less hours of light so this may be enough to trigger their biological clock. You keep the heat on so their cage is not dropping to 62 like the house. It may be dropping a little but not down to room temp.
Do you find them laying on the heat source?
Do they spend more time on the warm side?
Do they feed as well as in the spring or summer?

Lighting and yearly cycles is not really what I was after. But, I have corns that eat in shed, other spaz's that will eat daily then stop for a month.

My room temps do not vary in temps much at all.

Still the key is about males and building sperm. Northern snakes need it. Southern snakes don't, or not as much. but corns, span that range, and since no one, except those that collected their own SC's know the lineage of where their snake is from. Heck a creamsicle could be from 1 snake in Texas 1 in Florida and 1 in Virginia.

Lighting is a constant factor with all snakes. Again, the only reason I'm worried this year is I lost my brumation area. I had a corner of my basement where I left a window cracked, and snakes were in tubs all on heat pads set at 50 degrees.

I may try to make something to attach to a window in my room if I just do males? I have no cool walls. I live in a log home 10 inches of solid wood. Basement is even better insulated. I made it that way before I got back into herps.

I'll figure something out. But it was just odd I have this issue, and people started to post about not brumating corns.
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People with half the sense to do things right, do things wrong 50% of the time. {Me!}

Thanks
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

Once upon a time, circa 1988, I went to Disney in Orlando Florida. I was only a lad. The month was February and the temperatures were in the 40s - colder than in C-town. It would seem obvious that in most (if not all) parts of the corn snake's range, there's seasonal temperature variations.

Another interesting anecdote: Richard Bartlett is a writer of books on many types of herps. He lives in Florida and has noted that some types of box turtles show reduced fertility when not cooled. This is not usually expressed in the first year, but rather after several years of breeding without significant temperature reduction.

There are a number of people who have bred corns with little to no cooling, but in my opinion if you're waiting all year for the once-a-year chance to produce corns (unless they double clutch) why wouldn't you give yourself the best opportunity to insure fertility, which would be cooling the snakes?

Tim

Third Eye