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Here are some pics of my cauds. Hoping they are a pair, any thoughts appreciated. Click for a bigger pic. (my sons doing)

They were unhappy as you can see. For such a little lizard bite it bled quite freely.

Thanks for everyones help
Robin

#2 looks like the girl...

Thanks for posting the pics. #1 looks more masculine to me and #2 looks more feminine.

Hopefully FR can help.

Hi Guys, I wish I could be of help, but not this time. They appear to be just like yours Neal. You had what you thought was a pair, one was/is more male looking then the other. Upon investigation, you have two females, but one is more male appearing then the other.

This appears to be the case with these two. Yes, one looks more male, but is it? This is the magic of monitors, they do that. If two females live together, one acts male. If two males live together, one acts female. The magic part is, the one that acts the wrong sex, also physically appears to be the wrong sex too. Why I use my silly term, he/shes.

Heres what makes it unusual. If you or I have working groups, and we both do. There is no question about which is male and which is female. The males in a working group do not look anything like a female and the females do not look anything like a male. In other words, males are males and females are females.

But when you actually do not have both sexes, thats when this silly masking or mocking of another sex confuses the issue.

So in this pair, one looks more male, but not male.

This is why I asked my first question, did they lay eggs? or better yet, can you see the eggs in them(they can absorb them and not actually depost them) Neal, you know from the pics shown, those caudos were healthy enough to lay. In fact, the female appears to be full of pre ovum fat or ovum.

My guess is, they too are both females. The maleish one has larger spurs, but lacks bulges. Which male caudos have. Then it could be a undeveloped male, atrophied gonads, which also makes it a he/she. I hope I am wrong and I very well could be, its just pictures.

Just like with yours, If I could lay hands on them, I could indeed know what sex they are.

Here is a pair breeding, notice how much difference there are in the head shapes,

Heres a few of a pair breeding two years earlier, its not so apparent here, head shape that is.

I hope some of this helps, I hope there is a male, cheers

Hi Frank
Thanks for your help. I dug up the cage last night, (haven't done that for along time since they never looked garvid to me, but what do I know) and found no eggs or traces of eggs.
The more masculine one does pop (again not by me but by someone with lots of snake experience) the other didn't. Not sure if that helps, I know it doesen't help much with other species.
If its an atropied male can it be rehabilated (sp?) or is it too late?
Thanks again for all your help
Robin

about popping, Caudos are very reliable and easy to pop(for monitors) But of all the people I know, I am about the only one that can do it. Consider, monitors are not snakes. There hemipenes are not positioned like snakes. They do not go down the botton of the tail, but instead angle up towards the top of the tail. So with that in mind, those experienced with snakes normally suck with monitors.

Also, both sexes can be popped, both have organs that can be everted, males have hemipene, females hemiclitoris. So what was popped? That one did not pop is also of question.

If you check the archives, there have been a number of known females with pics of Huge organs hanging out. hahahahahahaha

Also, how long have you had them and what is the history. Without all the information, its makes all this guessing.

Would you say, your male appears like the male in the pics, or not quite as male?? Cheers, how funny is this?

I've got to say that the one I have lacks the width of head I see in your pics, not as heavy looking. looks like I got two females.
Many bad words. Oh well.
They were originaly produced by you and I got them from Eric Crider (sp)at about six months old, he thought they were a pair at the time. That was about 4 years ago.
Thanks for you help
Robin

but thats a long time for them to not lay eggs. As they are egg laying machines.

ALso male monitors, body shape is normally opposite between males and females. Males have wider shoulders and narrower hips. Females have wider hips and narrower shoulders.

Someone needs to give that fella in Canada a call. He said he could ship these monitors to the U.S.

I really hope theres more out there. It would be sad if they are done in the states. Cheers

Hey Frank, do you remeber who in canada has cauds. I might give getting them a try.
Thanks Robin

Thanks for sharing your insight and photos, Frank. The ambiguous sex of non-paired monitors and the obvious sex of working pairs is interesting stuff.

Cheers,
Neal

This is not confined to small monitors either. I have one lacie that I cannot tell what sex it is. Also, other lacies cannot tell either. Males try to breed it. Yet, it trys to breed other females. In appearance, its halfway between the two sexes. And its five years old????????? Its never fathered a clutch or laid a clutch.

I have two other Lacies that for the life of me appeared males. Except they are both gravid now. hmmmmmmmmm

Truely I do not know what it is or what it means. I do know what makes it occur. Its a condition of what other individuals they are raised with. Cheers