Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, I think I know the answer already, but i'll ask the experts.

I have a 3 year old 5 1/2' female weighing 1.7 kilograms & a 2 year old 5' male weighing 1 kilogram. Are they ok to breed or should I wait another year?

Thanks!

Eric
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If Jesus is your co-pilot, you'd better change seats!

Hi Eric, I'm certainly no expert, just going on experience from others and my fear about egg binding, but I've drawn a line in the sand of 6' for females, just to be safe. Luckily my largest female is now a little over that mark. I can't wait until November!

I understand everyone's concern regarding egg binding. I am curious how often it occurs, in what size female does it occur in and is size the only risk factor? I would imagine a dark, secure nest site and proper humidity would go a long way towards preventing egg binding even in what might be considered by captive breeding standards a "small" female. I do not advocate breeding small but I do enjoy considering unconventional wisdom...

daveb

dave, i have often pondered this point myself. i suspect it may also have something to do w/ the temps these strugglig females are being kept at. ie: i have always kept my cribos in indirect natural light only & at ambient room temps all year long [low to mid 70's w/ occasional spikes in the summer] & i have never experienced this problem. of course, this is just a guess on my part but something must be amiss somewhere as this certainly can't be happening w/ such regularity in wild populations or there wouldn't be any out there for very long you know? just mho.......

The female that I bred last year was only a little over 5' in length, BUT she was also very heavily bodied. She produced 5 good eggs and about 7 slugs. However, I didn't breed them until late so that could have accounted for the slugs.
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Paul Weaver
Carolina Herps

Thanks for the e-mail Doug!
I tried to e-mail you back, but it bounced.

Eric
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If Jesus is your co-pilot, you'd better change seats!

Eric, I personally feel that we put too many restrictions on size alone when it comes to the "proper" breeding size for adult females. I would have to believe that there are plenty of 4-5' female indigos, at the appropriate age, that are breeding and laying viable eggs (maybe just not as many). Obviously, larger indigos have the ability to lay larger clutches and it seems like the few confirmed nesting wild indigos are over 6' but that could be purely coincidence. Some of the others hit it on the head and there are many, many factors to dictate when a female is ready:
- age
- husbandry: egg binding could be more of an issue involving husbandry such as improper temps, lack of good available fresh water, proper humidity levels (egg laying boxes are great to have all the time in teh cages), light levels (do they benefit from UV/full spectrum light?....that's something I am very interested in), etc.

If the indigo is old enough (and I usually never breed my indigos before the age of 4), has good body weight, and is kept in optimal conditions, the length may not be as key of a factor as some of these other factors. We run into problems when we rush things along, cut corners with feeding an improper diet, etc. Dealing with an egg bound snake is never a pleasant thing so our job is to try to do everything right in a captive setting that provides the ideal conditions of these animals.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>Ok, I think I know the answer already, but i'll ask the experts.
>>
>>I have a 3 year old 5 1/2' female weighing 1.7 kilograms & a 2 year old 5' male weighing 1 kilogram. Are they ok to breed or should I wait another year?
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
>>Eric
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>>If Jesus is your co-pilot, you'd better change seats!
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Like many others, I will not allow any of my female Drys to mate prior to four years of age and I have yet to have a four year old, of any member of the Dry clan, less than six feet; with the exception of a dwarf D. couperi and D. m erebennus
While there has been talk of temperature, weight and length, I believe conditioning is a critical factor in the prevention of egg binding, as many of the captive specimens I have seen are grossly over weight and harbor poor musculature, as compared to their wild brethren, which often translates to poor conditioning. I further believe stress and poor nesting conditions can attribute to such, as I know many people constantly “check” in on their animals during oviposition and few offer a variety of nesting options for their specimens.
As it has been pointed out, there really is no empirical data indicating what exactly causes egg binding and even very large, mature and proven females have been known to incur such. Just another area of Dry husbandry for which we are merely beginning to scratch the surface of understanding…

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Eric,

You have gotten quite a number of answer regarding breeding your Inigos, which is a good thing. I am going to throw my two cents in, so here goes:

In MY OPINION, your snakes are both to small and to young to consider breeding at this time. I breed females at 6 1/2 ft and males at about 6 ft. In my opinion a critical factor, rather than size is TIME. I prefer them to be four years of age and older. Yes, younger female can breed, but it takes an lot out of them. If you look at the amont of people that have Drys that are 15, 18, or 20 years old, you tend to see a lot of people that have Drys that are in the 6-8 year range. Nothing wrong with that, only, if we push these snakes to hard, they will never make it to the 18 year mark. Or the 20. Serously count the number of older Drys in collections and youll see what I mean.

I HAVE had Easterns that became eggbound,and I came on this very forum to comment about it. Everyone has a theory regarding eggbinding, mine is quite simple, I believe that these snakes, when compared to their wild relatives ,lack both muscle tone and relevant excercise to stay in fit shape. Housing a 6ft snake in a slidebox doesnt afford it much of an opportunity to move naturally or use the muscles that God gave it. It slides around on the same piece of newspaper every day without moving or being challenged physically. Ditto the adult 7 ft male in a 4 ft cage. I beleive that we crowd them in cages that are to small, limit the enviornment that we keep them in with little to no stimulus,and overfeed them, and then wonder why we have eggbound females?

Just my theory. Unproven of course. As are others.

Hope this info helped

Sincerely,
Fredrick N.Albury

... why the surface of (eastern)indigo eggs is granular? it isn't present in other large eggs of other species that i am aware of...
anyhow several people have in the past pointed to this feature as a contributing factor in egg binding.
Daveb

>>... why the surface of (eastern)indigo eggs is granular? it isn't present in other large eggs of other species that i am aware of...
>>anyhow several people have in the past pointed to this feature as a contributing factor in egg binding.
>>Daveb

Yes there are other North American snakes with granular surfaced eggs. particularly Racers (Coluber) Whipsnakes, and Coachwhips (Masticophis) all produce large eggs with disitnctly granular surfaces. The "granules" are more like nodules in crossection, as they are part of the shell, rather than adhering grains.

I have no clue why these snakes' eggs are granular, nor what advantage, if any granularity confers. IMHO, if this characteristic did in fact make these snakes prone to egg-binding, then it would have disappeared long ago.

Why do Indigos tend to egg-bind? Again, IMHO, it is most likely some factor that these snakes can readily get to or obtain in nature, but is lacking in captivity. Could be a varied diet, could be physical conditioning, could be exposure to natural light, could be age and/or size. Perhaps it is genetic, and the captive gene pool is so limited that this bad gene keeps cropping up.

Only continued experimentation in the captive breeding of these Kings of New World Snakes will resolve this issue. To this end I applaud the efforts of Robert Sieb, Robert Charmichael, Fred Albury, Jeff Snodgres, Tony Carlisle, Dean Allesandri, Doug Taylor, and all the other dedicated keepers who continue to propagate Indigos.

I only hope that someday, I too might contribute my own efforts towards these rewarding and challenging serpents.

Best Regards,

John DeMelas
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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat (WV Rescue) "Roberta"

No answer but I believe it may contribute to egg binding in at least some small way. My first egg bound female died, I guess about 5 or 6 years ago. We (my vet and I) did an autopsy. The eggs(slugs, etc) were "velcroed" to the wall of the oviduct. I can't help but believe the granular suface has something to do with that...
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

You responded just as I knew you would. In my heart I knew the answer, I guess i'm just getting anxious.
I'll definitely be waiting another year. They should both be over 6' by then.

Eric
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If Jesus is your co-pilot, you'd better change seats!

Your female and her reproductive years will thank you for it!
Now, kick back, relax and watch her grow, as next year will be met with much anticipation and anxiety, I guanatee you. ;0)

Best of luck to you and your future project,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947