Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've been meaning to ask this for a while..
A few years back on the Monitor forums here, I spied several dozen topics on Yellow/red crosses.. now I hear nothing, and I see tons of Reds sold that just don't appear really red, and yellows with a degree of red which I couldn't ascribe to either.

Where there really ever true crosses?

And if so, what is their defining traits?

I'll admit something, I have never seen an Ackie I could prove was V. A. A. or V. A. (Yellow ssp) so I have no basis for comparison to my "Reds"
but I'm curious about it... if I have offspring, and should I sell them, I do not want to miss mark them and only further the crosses anonymity and prevalence.

[img]http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/1800/dsc00236fi3.jpg[img]

That's a pic of mine, under a basking light so colors are diffused..
My Male has on the middle of it's dorsal area, a long, varying in width, black/brown stripe... White circles, and under good light, or when wet (currently shedding) a good amount of pretty Red on both sides

This pattern seems to extend the length of the body.

Under Natural light, my male has white circles and other defining marks, rather than Yellow, though under the bulb, it certainly almost seems yellow.

His length is about 18", and far bigger in overall bulk to my female who maybe only 12"-14" (My house just burned down, I have fellow SWHS members and friends holding onto my herps right now, so I can't take accurate measurements this second)

He also has a far larger head, the difference is truly night and day, next to her, she really seems like a dwarf, about the size of most Sand? Desert? Monitors I see (Confused on common name, Small tan varanid.. V. i something..)

The Female is a fair red color, even though rather small, of 3 years of age..
She's not a vibrant red, but it's certainly there.. it's like a muted color, even under natural light.. All the same, she's very pretty

So I guess I'm asking for identification and answers

I know about the size difference between the ssp. and also apparently the tail spikes, but as I said, i have no basis for comparison other than several Ackies at the pet store, which really don't appear to be what they say they are either, which startles me.. I know all reds aren't truly red, but the pigment is certainly there in some quantity, but to see such an odd pattern as the black/brown and Red vertical lines.. and having seen them on Both Yellows and Reds on KS Classifieds...
I'm really confused

Any help is appreciated..
Thank you.
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2.0 Beardie
1.1 Common Boa
1.1 Ackies
0.1 Giant BW Tegu
Thousands of Roaches, T's, and Scorps.
R.I.P. My Beautiful Savannah Monitor.. and my prized Leopard Geckos..

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2.0 Beardie
1.1 Common Boa
1.1 Ackies
0.1 Giant BW Tegu
Thousands of Roaches, T's, and Scorps.
R.I.P. My Beautiful Savannah Monitor.. and my prized Leopard Geckos..

If the pic is your monitors you have MUCH bigger problems than what subspecies they might be.
Are they really on carpet for a substrate, in an aquarium?
Please say it aint so.

*sigh* I really don't want to make this into an argument of Husbandry,
That was a temporary enclosure established on the first day I had them while I was fixing their permanent enclosure ready..

And as stated, My house just burned down yesterday at 5 AM, I lost half of my animals in quantity and I'm trying to divert my mind off of care and otherwise by boggling over a question of taxonomic importance to my mind.

If you truly want an argument..

The full enclosure was 4' x 2' x 3', adequate for a small breeding pair..
a full Rete's stack, foot of soil, 2 basking spots, and several rock hide spots formed from small rock slabs..

Of course, now a pile of charred wood, melted glass/metal, and plastic.

I'm not exactly new to Varanids.
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2.0 Beardie
1.1 Common Boa
1.1 Ackies
0.1 Giant BW Tegu
Thousands of Roaches, T's, and Scorps.
R.I.P. My Beautiful Savannah Monitor.. and my prized Leopard Geckos..

Those are NOT reds, not in anyway. Some color differences, the white in the occeli does not occur in reds, NEVER. Look at the tiny tail spines. Sissy boy spines hahahahahahaha can you say, yellows, hahahahahahahaha

The only questionable traits on this pair, and it appears a pair, is the difined head markings. Reds have defined head markings from the day they hatch. Yellows do not. In most hatchlings they have no markings on the head. Althought, yellows develop more difined head markings as they mature, they still do not compare.

Of course crosses mix and match. But I see no other traits other then the head markings to call them crosses. They are simply not reds.

Is this one of the pics from KS, I kind of remember it?

THis pic is the original female(Founder) to all the Real reds in this country. Cheers

You would have seen the pair, Marketed as red for $500, 3 year old adult pair, breeding.
But no, the picture is mine.. Lovely pair all the same, Cross or not.
And that's quite a beautiful girl.

Hope you're well FR
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2.0 Beardie
1.1 Common Boa
1.1 Ackies
0.1 Giant BW Tegu
Thousands of Roaches, T's, and Scorps.
R.I.P. My Beautiful Savannah Monitor.. and my prized Leopard Geckos..

What is very prevalent is, they are named wrong. Recently I asked this question on our forum. I went to the KS monitor classifieds and noticed over half of the ackies that were sold as reds were not reds at all. In fact, they were normal MT.Isa form V.a.brachyurus.

The problem stems all the way to taxonomics. They simply have them named wrong. I know, taxo is suppose to help sort out what is what. But in the case of ackies(and many other monitors specie, it fails) There are most likely at least 50 kinds of ackies. Ok, 25 kinds, really maybe 50, depends if your a lumper or splitter, hahahahahahahaha. There are lots of distintly different types.

It also stems from, lack of interest. Most people simply call them whatever the person or shop, sold them as. But no one actually researched what they were.

1. Early on, there were Cloncurry form ackies in the trade. These are, V.a.brachyurus.
2. Then came Mt.Isa form ackies, these are also, V.a.brachyurus.
3. Then came Red ackies, from the very west coast, hundreds upon hundreds of K,s away. These are V.a.acanthurus.

Up until now its not to difficult.

4. Then came Western giants(which are neither, western or giant) These are a different form of Mt. Isa, V.a.brachyurus. Here the name western, thru a huge stick in the spokes. As The Reds were also correctly known as, Western Reds, Western desert reds.

5. Then came German Reds, which is also from the Mt. Isa area, they are a form with lots of orange and reddish. But in all other aspects were simple Mt. Isa's, again, V.a.brachyurus.

Now consider, every isolated population of ackies, is somewhat different then the other populations. At least in color and pattern.

So what makes them different. Well unfortunately, what makes them different for taxonomy is, LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION. That is first and formost. Along with location is, scalation. While only a nerd would count scale rows on small monitors. There is at least one distint different, Reds, Western reds, Western desert reds, V.a.a., have huge spines on the tail. Where as, V.a.brachyurus, which includes Yellows, western giants, german reds, have much smaller spines and their tail spines are longer on the sides and shorter on the top. Reds are large everywhere.

Size, Reds, V.a.a., are larger in build and in captivity, larger in size then, V.a.brachyurus. In nature, its another matter altogether.

Reds, have eggs twice the size of yellows(do i still have to use SN?) The size of the eggs is often related to the size of the adults. Of course some reptiles have fewer large eggs or more smaller eggs. This is not the case, both have the same clutch size, only the reds eggs are double the size.

So are there crosses. Yes, and for a change, they were accidental. That is, most did them because they thought they were only color differences, not different subspecies. I imagine if they revise the SN of ackies, the current trend would be to make them different species.

I did not mention color characters because, if you include the crosses, you have no grounds to make a decision. In otherwords, you would be hopelessly confused. Of course you can do what I did, I went and looked at them in nature. But then, that would confuse you for a decade or so, until you see enough to start to make sense out of it.

The main problem is, ackies have not decided what they are. In most areas they occur out in the flats, much like our Desert iggies. And much like them they will occur up to rocky hills and actually live in those rocky hills. But unlike desert iggies, ackies have actually adapted to hills. In some areas, such as the top end, they became rocky hill dwellers and did not live in the flats(the flats were seasonally too wet) They live in rocky hills with drainage. In other areas, like our famous Mt. Isa, they occurred in both the flats(Cloncurry) and the hills, all over the area, seperated by flats. Here they became localized and expressed many different colors and patterns for different needs. But were physically the same. In other areas, like the southwest, you can have one distint type in the hills and a totally different type in the flats. I loved this. Very interesting.

Yet all the while are books only have a very few types, and actually had them wrong too. If you read ten books, you will get ten different discriptions and ten different ranges the types occur in. In otherwords to quote the late Dennis King, they need some work(along with many other types of monitors)

WOW, that was long, but its absolutely right on.

Heres what I do, if an ackie does not appear to be one of the types, its a cross. It really does not matter what it is, it is still a cross. I have nothing against crosses.

You have to understand, even where they occur, not all Western desert REDS, are red. Not all yellows are yellow, not all German reds are red, in fact, very few are red. Not all Western Giants are giant and none are western. I guess Mt Isa is west of Cloncurry. But where do the ackies from Tenent Creek fit in, or Alice, or Wyndam, or Kunnanurra, or Turkey creek, or broome, or Port Helland, or the kimberlys(blackfaced and stripenecked and more) or the Hammersly and surrounding areas, or the thousands of locals inbetween??????? Cheers

I was afraid they weren't reds .. and I did read a early piece in "Giant Lizards" regarding the Western reds and the Yellows and other Ssps..
I'd be a bit sour about their asking price though, but alas, They're absolutely amazing monitors either way, and while not the most vibrant ackies of any sort, They are beautiful Varanids, Taxonomy/locality aside (A well known topic for me considering my fun in Boa Constrictors)

I love their personality all the same.. but when I have offspring, I will market them as V. A. ssp... hopefully without too much argument.

Common names based on Color are trouble... and habitat for that matter.. considering all the Desert/Sand/Savannah/Water species of not only Varanids but Agamids and the like.

At this point, I just need to stay out of Taxonomy and focus on the health of my herps, but I really appreciate this FR, as I stated in an earlier topic, I'm deteremined to hit Australia on my world tour someday and check it out.. also want to see the lesser known Pogona species.. but that's another topic.

Definately cheered my day up
-----
2.0 Beardie
1.1 Common Boa
1.1 Ackies
0.1 Giant BW Tegu
Thousands of Roaches, T's, and Scorps.
R.I.P. My Beautiful Savannah Monitor.. and my prized Leopard Geckos..